5 Minute vs 0 Minute Hops

smyrnaquince · Feb 1, 2012

I'm planning on brewing a dubbel recipe that calls for hops at 60, 20, and 5. I am wondering what the difference would be between adding the last hops at 5 versus adding them at 0. An addition at 5 would barely affect the bitterness, so I don't see any difference there. I'm thinking that the 0 addition would let more of the hop aroma come through.

In addition to that general question of 5 vs 0 minute hops, I have a question related to my brewing process. I brew stovetop half batches (2.5 gallons) and cool the pot in a sink of cold water. So, my wort does not cool as fast as it would with an immersion chiller. Given the slower cooling, should I always push my flavor and aroma hops 5 minute later? For the recipe above, I would keep the 60 minute hops as-is, but move the 20 to 15 and the 5 to 0.

PoppinCaps · Feb 1, 2012

I've started adding the really late hops (<5min) after I started cooling. I have the same issue as you, it takes me about 10 mins to get the temp down to 110F, another 15 to 65F (need a bigger IC). I found this lets more of the aroma come through.

NordeastBrewer77 · Feb 1, 2012

smyrnaquince said:
I
In addition to that general question of 5 vs 0 minute hops, I have a question related to my brewing process. I brew stovetop half batches (2.5 gallons) and cool the pot in a sink of cold water. So, my wort does not cool as fast as it would with an immersion chiller. Given the slower cooling, should I always push my flavor and aroma hops 5 minute later? For the recipe above, I would keep the 60 minute hops as-is, but move the 20 to 15 and the 5 to 0.

i do just that, because cooling in an ice bath takes me longer than using an IC. my flavor how are added between 5 and ten mins left in the boil and my aroma additions at flameout with a short steep before chilling. it helps a lot with the aroma.

unionrdr · Feb 1, 2012

I never get much hop aroma out of those 5 minute or less additions. I start flavor hop additions at 20-25 minutes,depending on how much hops I'm adding for a given recipe. My last hop addition is 1-15 minutes,unless it's an IPA,the the last addition would be about 8:30 left in the boil. I can get more aroma from a small dry hop of 1/4oz to half ounce than with a 2-5 minute boil addition.

TopherM · Feb 1, 2012

I think for me it would more depend on your drinking patterns.

The bitterness/alpha and beta acid of the hop is absorbed more by the beer the longer you boil it, so 5 minute addition is going to stick around with the beer and dissipate less quickly than a 0 minute addition, though the 0 minute addition will be slightly more aeromatic.

If you drink your beers realively quickly, that 0 minute addition will give you better aeromatics, but will start to dissipate pretty quickly within 2-3 weeks, while a 5 minute addition would be slightly less aeromatic, but wouldn't dissipate as quickly, so it might stick around a few more weeks.

So, it's a little give and take, but I would personally model it around my drinking patterns. I drink most kegs pretty quickly, but a dubbel might take slightly longer, so I might opt for sticking with the 5 minute late addition or even hop bursting the batch and doing 1/2 of the late addition at 5 and 1/2 at 0 (and even maybe hop bursting the bittering and flavor additions as well).

I do agree with an earlier post, however, that I would typically stick to 60/30/15 additions, and just make sure that my 15 addition for an IPA was a hop with high aeromatic qualities, like Amarillo, Citra, Cascade, Sterling, Williamette, or Columbus.

Hope it turns out great!!

Piratwolf · Feb 1, 2012

TopherM said:
...I would typically stick to 60/30/15 additions....

I'm afraid that I just don't get the 30 min addition. Personally, I go with FWH, 20-15 range, & 5-1 range. Seems like 30 is in that middle range where you don't get as much bitterness or flavor. I'd rather add more @ 60/FWH or more at 20-15 to increase the desired effect. YMMV, of course!

I do use a CFC to chill my wort in under 10 mins, however; I agree with pushing back the 5-min adds if you have a slow chilling approach.

dcp27 · Feb 1, 2012

Piratwolf said:
I'm afraid that I just don't get the 30 min addition. ......
I agree with pushing back the 5-min adds if you have a slow chilling approach.

+1.

being that this is for a dubbel, you're looking for minimal hop notes so i wouldn't worry too much about it tho.

pjj2ba · Feb 2, 2012

TopherM said:
If you drink your beers realively quickly, that 0 minute addition will give you better aromatics, but will start to dissipate pretty quickly within 2-3 weeks, while a 5 minute addition would be slightly less aeromatic, but wouldn't dissipate as quickly, so it might stick around a few more weeks.

So, it's a little give and take, but I would personally model it around my drinking patterns. I drink most kegs pretty quickly, but a dubbel might take slightly longer, so I might opt for sticking with the 5 minute late addition or even hop bursting the batch and doing 1/2 of the late addition at 5 and 1/2 at 0 (and even maybe hop bursting the bittering and flavor additions as well).

This agrees with my experience as well. This is purely anecdotal though with no facts to back them up. I brew quite a few lagers and I like the 5 min addition over flameout for the reasons TopherM outlined.

smyrnaquince · Feb 3, 2012

The bitterness/alpha and beta acid of the hop is absorbed more by the beer the longer you boil it, so 5 minute addition is going to stick around with the beer and dissipate less quickly than a 0 minute addition, though the 0 minute addition will be slightly more aeromatic.

I thought the alphas and betas only contributed to the bitterness. I didn't realize that they also affect how long the aroma (or flavor?) would last.

If you drink your beers realively quickly, that 0 minute addition will give you better aeromatics, but will start to dissipate pretty quickly within 2-3 weeks, while a 5 minute addition would be slightly less aeromatic, but wouldn't dissipate as quickly, so it might stick around a few more weeks.

I expect this will take me a while to consume. That is one reason I do half batches.

being that this is for a dubbel, you're looking for minimal hop notes so i wouldn't worry too much about it tho.

So maybe this is all good info for my next APA, but doesn't matter much for my dubbel. Given my slow, in-sink wort cooling, I may change my APA recipe's hop schedule from 60-30-10-0 to 60-20-5-Dry.

This particular recipe has me adding 0.4 oz of Hallertauer Hersbrucker pellets at 20 and 0.4 oz at 5. I could just toss the last 0.2 oz into the fermenting bucket. (This is dry hopping, right?) Or I can just not sweat it because this is a dubbel.

Based on the discussion we've had, I guess I am leaning toward keeping the 60-20-5 hop schedule and stopping at that.

jotakah · Feb 3, 2012

smyrnaquince said:
This particular recipe has me adding 0.4 oz of Hallertauer Hersbrucker pellets at 20 and 0.4 oz at 5. I could just toss the last 0.2 oz into the fermenting bucket. (This is dry hopping, right?) Or I can just not sweat it because this is a dubbel.

Yeah just drop it in the fermenting bucket BUT don't do it until fermentation is almost complete. If you do long primaries instead of secondaries (which I infer you do..), wait til the SG is 1.020 or lower. For the same reason delicate hop aromas are volatile & dissipate over the course of just a few weeks, too much fermentation on your dry hops will just bubble all the smell away.

dcp27 · Feb 3, 2012

smyrnaquince said:
I thought the alphas and betas only contributed to the bitterness.

they do

I didn't realize that they also affect how long the aroma (or flavor?) would last.

they don't

Given my slow, in-sink wort cooling, I may change my APA recipe's hop schedule from 60-30-10-0 to 60-20-5-Dry.

how slow is it? I'd be doing something closer to that 2nd schedule for a fast-chill anyway, prolly 60-10-0-dry if its that slow

I could just toss the last 0.2 oz into the fermenting bucket. (This is dry hopping, right?)

yup, but i wouldnt dry hop a dubbel (unless you want a hop aroma). also, just to be clear dry hops should be added after fermentation is complete, otherwise you drive off much of the aroma. id stick with the 60-20-5, or just cut out the late adds

smyrnaquince · Feb 3, 2012

First, I realize that there is no absolutely correct answer. Thank you all for educating and helping me.

I checked my notes--for my last brew, it took 2 hours to chill down to 86F, at which point I pitched the yeast. I think I need to try adding ice to the sink next time.

Hops are not supposed to be a dominant part of a dubbel, but I've got a slow chill. I think I'll try to balance these out by shifting the recipe's 60-20-5 hop schedule to 60-10-0, but not add in a dry hop.

For my next APA, I think I'll change the recipe's 60-30-10-0 hop schedule to 60-10-0-Dry, as dcp27 suggested.

kerant · Feb 3, 2012

TopherM said:
I think for me it would more depend on your drinking patterns.

The bitterness/alpha and beta acid of the hop is absorbed more by the beer the longer you boil it, so 5 minute addition is going to stick around with the beer and dissipate less quickly than a 0 minute addition, though the 0 minute addition will be slightly more aeromatic.

If you drink your beers realively quickly, that 0 minute addition will give you better aeromatics, but will start to dissipate pretty quickly within 2-3 weeks, while a 5 minute addition would be slightly less aeromatic, but wouldn't dissipate as quickly, so it might stick around a few more weeks.

So, it's a little give and take, but I would personally model it around my drinking patterns. I drink most kegs pretty quickly, but a dubbel might take slightly longer, so I might opt for sticking with the 5 minute late addition or even hop bursting the batch and doing 1/2 of the late addition at 5 and 1/2 at 0 (and even maybe hop bursting the bittering and flavor additions as well).

I do agree with an earlier post, however, that I would typically stick to 60/30/15 additions, and just make sure that my 15 addition for an IPA was a hop with high aeromatic qualities, like Amarillo, Citra, Cascade, Sterling, Williamette, or Columbus.

Hope it turns out great!!

What's your definition of drinking quickly :mug:

starrfish · Feb 3, 2012

For a double I wouldn't add much if any after 20min... these should be malt and yeast profile forward beers. some hop flavor is ok. a french strissle spalt would be the only hop I would add late as has a low aa & a raisin like flavor and a earthy root aroma. which goes well in any belgian or french ale.

smyrnaquince · Feb 4, 2012

smyrnaquince said:
I checked my notes--for my last brew, it took 2 hours to chill down to 86F, at which point I pitched the yeast. I think I need to try adding ice to the sink next time.

OK. After reading my own post, went out and bought the parts and made myself an immersion chiller.

beergolf · Feb 4, 2012

starrfish said:
For a double I wouldn't add much if any after 20min... these should be malt and yeast profile forward beers. some hop flavor is ok. a french strissle spalt would be the only hop I would add late as has a low aa & a raisin like flavor and a earthy root aroma. which goes well in any belgian or french ale.

+1. ... Also if you age a Belgian, the late addition aroma hops are just a waste. Most Belgians do best with a lot of age so the aroma just goes away. I usuallly just do a 60 and a 30 for most Belgians. 2/3 of the IBU's at 60 and then the last1/3 at 30.

Ramitt · Feb 4, 2012

smyrnaquince said:
OK. After reading my own post, went out and bought the parts and made myself an immersion chiller.

One of the best investments you will make in your brewing.

smyrnaquince · Feb 12, 2012

Just used it today. I do 2.5-gallon all-grain BIAB. 16 minutes to take the wort down to 66F! Wow!

klnosaj · Feb 12, 2012

Recent research (still looking for the cite) determined that peak flavor of hops is achieved at 22 mins boiling and peak aroma at 7 minutes boiling.

I don't think it's accidental that a typical hops addition is with 5 mins to go.

I'll keep trying to track down the paper.

*EDIT: not quite the original source, but the data are an accurate reflection of what I read:

5 Minute vs 0 Minute Hops

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