Batch sparge not working well

broadbill said:

Evaporation rate doesn't have anything to do with efficiency.

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I was under the impression it did, but I know jack. My theory was low evaporation rate equals a higher post boil volume which means a thinner less condensed wort which means a lower OG. Isn't that half the purpose of the boil? Hop utilization and condensing of the wort?

I had a lot more wort left after my boil.

wookiemofo said:

I was under the impression it did, but I know jack. My theory was low evaporation rate equals a higher post boil volume which means a thinner less condensed wort which means a lower OG. Isn't that half the purpose of the boil? Hop utilization and condensing of the wort?

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It is definately a result of the boil. But efficiency is based on the amount of sugar extracted from the grain during the mash. The boil has nothing to do with mash efficiency.

Ah... Was I talking about brewhouse efficiency? Or is that something different as well?

Low efficiency, extract or brew house isn't necessarily a bad thing.

You can bang your head against the wall, spend money on new equipment, or spend another $3 on malt. It's not that big of a deal.

Extract/Brewhouse efficiency shouldn't always be some sort of unspoken pissing match.

...but if you simply up your grain bill, then you should expect an even higher OG. If you are struggling with efficiency, then you will still have undershot your expected OG and have low efficiency values.

Consistency is better than a higher % efficiency and that's an item the OP is dealing with as well. I'll take 60% efficiency consistently than have 10 to 20 % swings that I can't plan my process around. Grain isnt all that expensive but finding out what's driving the inconsistencies would be my priority. Lots of great advice in this thread!

wookiemofo said:

Ah... Was I talking about brewhouse efficiency? Or is that something different as well?

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When the term "efficiency" is discussed by homebrewers it typically refers to what is known as "brewhouse efficiency". As JonBoy mentioned it is the actual amount of sugars you extract from the grain as a percentage of the theoretical maximum you could get.

There are also such things as conversion efficiency (efficiency of conversion of starch to sugar in the mash process) and Lauter efficiency (how well the grains are rinsed). Together these make up what you end up with as a brewhouse efficiency. Homebrewers typically do not splice out which is which in order to troubleshoot brewhouse efficiency; they just run through the typical set of issues that are known to cause poor efficiency (grain crush, sparge water channeling, dead space etc).

Hope this helps....for Kaiser's treatise on the subject (all the information you could possibly need:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficiency

Waunabeer said:

...but if you simply up your grain bill, then you should expect an even higher OG. If you are struggling with efficiency, then you will still have undershot your expected OG and have low efficiency values.

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Hi Waunabeer, the highlighted and italicized portion is where brewers can do something - i.e. put their actual efficiency numbers in so that they are accurately predicting the OG.

Many brewers use brewing software. Lets say I'm following a recipe that assumes an efficiency of 80% and an OG of 1.050, but I know that I get 70% efficiency. If I enter my actual expected efficiency in the software (70%), then I can adjust the grain bill so that my expected OG is 1.050.

High efficiency is very important for commercial brewers, much less so for homebrewers. Consistency in a homebrewers efficiency is important, so that s/he can predict what the og of any given recipe will be, based on their efficiency.

Pappers_ said:

Hi Waunabeer, the highlighted and italicized portion is where brewers can do something - i.e. put their actual efficiency numbers in so that they are accurately predicting the OG.

Many brewers use brewing software. Lets say I'm following a recipe that assumes an efficiency of 80% and an OG of 1.050, but I know that I get 70% efficiency. If I enter my actual expected efficiency in the software (70%), then I can adjust the grain bill so that my expected OG is 1.050.

High efficiency is very important for commercial brewers, much less so for homebrewers. Consistency in a homebrewers efficiency is important, so that s/he can predict what the og of any given recipe will be, based on their efficiency.

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Ahh, I get it. I have beer smith software and will have to change the default brewhouse efficiency %. Thanks.

Walker said:

AT ANY RATE....


Something seems wrong with the fact that you put 15 quarts in and only get 8 quarts out with 12 lbs of grain. 12 lbs of grain will absorb a little under 1 gallon of water, so that explains where 4 of your 15 quarts went, but where the hell are the other 3?

Large dead-space?

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Absorption loss on 12lbs of grain is about 1.5 gallons . . . .

GRHunter said:

What's your process? - 1) Pre-heat my tun\cooler 2) Empty the pre-heated water, dump in the gain, add my strike water . . .

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There's no need to dump your pre-heat water. Pre-heat your tun with the full amount of strike water, stir it until it cools to your desired strike temp and then add your grain.

Curious if GRHunter was able to solve his efficiency issue and if so, what was the solution.

I saw in his gallery pics that there is a motorized grain mill.

I really don't want to hijack this thread, but I'm having similar issues. I get my grain crushed at Northern Brewer in West Allis. They have there mill set to .040" which to me isn't a very fine crush for batch sparging, so I usually get an extra lb of base grain for what the recipe calls for. Do you think northern brewer would lower the mill setting for me temporarily?

Can someone look at my brew process? I use a 48 quart coleman cooler, SS braid filter, basically what Don Osborn and Denny use.

1. Heat mash water to 167*F
2. Dump 167*F mash water into tun, allow mash water to get to 164*F.
3. Slowly mix in crushed grain while stirring very WELL.
4. Stir until mash is stable at 152*F, close lid. Start 60 minute mash.
5. Stir mash at 15 minutes.
6. Stir mash at 25 minutes.
7. Prepare 185*F sparge water at 30 minutes.
8. At 60 minutes, vorlauf first runnings into bucket.
9. Add 185*F sparge water to mash, stir, allow to sit for 5 minutes.
10. Add first runnings from bucket to boil kettle.
11. Vorlauf second runnings to boil kettle.
12. Start boil 60 minutes boil.

Look okay? I get my temperatures and water volumes from CP's Brew Chart. I always end up with 6.5 gal in BK, and boil down to 5.5 gal.

Thanks - Justin

idigg said:

I really don't want to hijack this thread, but I'm having similar issues. I get my grain crushed at Northern Brewer in West Allis. They have there mill set to .040" which to me isn't a very fine crush for batch sparging, so I usually get an extra lb of base grain for what the recipe calls for. Do you think northern brewer would lower the mill setting for me temporarily?

Can someone look at my brew process? I use a 48 quart coleman cooler, SS braid filter, basically what Don Osborn and Denny use.

1. Heat mash water to 167*F
2. Dump 167*F mash water into tun, allow mash water to get to 164*F.
3. Slowly mix in crushed grain while stirring very WELL.
4. Stir until mash is stable at 152*F, close lid. Start 60 minute mash.
5. Stir mash at 15 minutes.
6. Stir mash at 25 minutes.
7. Prepare 185*F sparge water at 30 minutes.
8. At 60 minutes, vorlauf first runnings into bucket.
9. Add 185*F sparge water to mash, stir, allow to sit for 5 minutes.
10. Add first runnings from bucket to boil kettle.
11. Vorlauf second runnings to boil kettle.
12. Start boil 60 minutes boil.

Look okay? I get my temperatures and water volumes from CP's Brew Chart. I always end up with 6.5 gal in BK, and boil down to 5.5 gal.

Thanks - Justin

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looks ok by me...what is your efficiency?

idigg said:

I really don't want to hijack this thread, but I'm having similar issues. I get my grain crushed at Northern Brewer in West Allis. They have there mill set to .040" which to me isn't a very fine crush for batch sparging, so I usually get an extra lb of base grain for what the recipe calls for. Do you think northern brewer would lower the mill setting for me temporarily?

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No, they won't. I asked about it (I have my own mill, and was buying grain but I asked anyway out of curiosity!) and they said no.

I don't usually stir my mash once I'm mashed in, but you can do it and it's fine.

Your process looks great! I guess the best thing to do is to just plan on the same efficiency, if you're getting consistency.

My eff. has been mid to upper 60's. I think I'm going to invest in a barley crusher, even though my wife says no!

I think stirring is the key when batch sparging. In fly sparging the motion of the water running through the grain bed rinses the sugars from the grain into the wort. In batch sparging you don't have any rinsing action so you have to stir to get the sugars into the wort. Im a noob but brew at 83% and stir like it's my job.

idigg said:

<...>
8. At 60 minutes, vorlauf first runnings into bucket.
9. Add 185*F sparge water to mash, stir, allow to sit for 5 minutes.
10. Add first runnings from bucket to boil kettle.
11. Vorlauf second runnings to boil kettle.

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I'm not 100% I understand this part. But here's how I do mine.

For batch sparging, repeat this until the right amount of wort is collected to the kettle (you can do one batch sparge, 2 batch sparges, etc etc. It's your call):

For the number of batch sparges:
...Stir the mash
...Wait 5 minutes
...Vorlauf (return to mash tun) the runnings until they are clear
...Drain the mash tun to the kettle
...Add sparge water if you have any left.
End loop when out of sparge water (or required amount of wort has been attained)

[Yeah I'm in IT]

If I batch sparge, I normally do 4-5 batch sparges. It's a personal choice really. I just figure out roughly how much water I need to cover the grains +1 inch, and divide that from the number quarts I need to sparge. If I call for 20 quarts of sparge water, and it takes me 5 quarts to cover the grain bed, I will then do 4 batch sparges (20 / 4).

I get 80-82% on both batch sparge and fly sparge.

BTW, 185F sparge water is a bit on the high end, the generally accepted temperature is 165-175F.

M_C

I am a noob at this, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned is the thermometer. Is it calibrated? You could think your water is at the right temp, but it is no. Just an idea on another variable.

idigg said:

My eff. has been mid to upper 60's. I think I'm going to invest in a barley crusher, even though my wife says no!

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Maybe ask them to run it through the mill twice and see if that helps? You can also try ordering from another brew shop and see if that helps (I've had good luck with Brewmaster's Warehouse).

Jklinden said:

I think stirring is the key when batch sparging. In fly sparging the motion of the water running through the grain bed rinses the sugars from the grain into the wort. In batch sparging you don't have any rinsing action so you have to stir to get the sugars into the wort. Im a noob but brew at 83% and stir like it's my job.

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I assume that you mean stirring before you sparge? I have never heard/seen of anyone stirring in the middle of a sparge. Stirring will likely get you a stuck sparge.

Exactly! I stir then wait for 10 or so and then vorlauf and go from there

Jklinden said:

Exactly! I stir then wait for 10 or so and then vorlauf and go from there

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No need to wait for 10 minutes. I've done it many times both with and without the wait and found no difference.

wilserbrewer said:

The more sparges you do, efficiency should increase in theory. But as in most cases, there is a point of diminishing returns. I feel that three runnings of approx. the same volume is a good compromise b/w labor in and eficiency.

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If you're doing that, either your cooler is too small or you might as well be fly sparging. Personally, I've found so little gain from doing more than one sparge that I almost never do 2. My average efficiency with a single batch sparge is in the mid-high 80s.

Misplaced_Canuck said:

If I batch sparge, I normally do 4-5 batch sparges. It's a personal choice really. I just figure out roughly how much water I need to cover the grains +1 inch, and divide that from the number quarts I need to sparge. If I call for 20 quarts of sparge water, and it takes me 5 quarts to cover the grain bed, I will then do 4 batch sparges (20 / 4).

I get 80-82% on both batch sparge and fly sparge.

BTW, 185F sparge water is a bit on the high end, the generally accepted temperature is 165-175F.

M_C

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Sure it's a personal choice, but why? 99% of the time I do a single batch sparge and I get average efficiency in the mid-high 80s. If you're doing 4-5 batch sparges, you might as well be fly sparging.

And BTW, the generally accepted batch sparge temp is 185-190F, which _may_ get your grainbed to 168. IME it will be lower. It's grain temp that matters, not water temp.

Denny to the rescue!

Yooper said:

No, they won't. I asked about it (I have my own mill, and was buying grain but I asked anyway out of curiosity!) and they said no.

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Yikes! That seems like an AWFULLY large gap for crushing grains...

I mean, I know places might want to run a little large to help prevent stuck mashes, but that's a long ways from .032!

I'd either think about getting my own mill or finding a new source for crushed grains.

Denny said:

Sure it's a personal choice, but why? 99% of the time I do a single batch sparge and I get average efficiency in the mid-high 80s. If you're doing 4-5 batch sparges, you might as well be fly sparging.

And BTW, the generally accepted batch sparge temp is 185-190F, which _may_ get your grainbed to 168. IME it will be lower. It's grain temp that matters, not water temp.

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I'm with Denny on this. I used to sparge twice, but lately I find it faster and easier to do s single sparge and just spend a small amount on a little bit more grain. The difference was literally a couple of points.

Denny said:

Sure it's a personal choice, but why? 99% of the time I do a single batch sparge and I get average efficiency in the mid-high 80s. If you're doing 4-5 batch sparges, you might as well be fly sparging.

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No reason in particular other than I do it this way. And that's why I said it's a personal choice. I also probably wouldn't have the room to load up so much water for a single sparge. If your brewing works fine and you get good efficiency with a single sparge, than there's no reason to do multiple.

Denny said:

And BTW, the generally accepted batch sparge temp is 185-190F, which _may_ get your grainbed to 168. IME it will be lower. It's grain temp that matters, not water temp.

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So Palmer got it all wrong with his 170F, aye?

John Palmer said:

Sparging is the rinsing of the grain bed to extract as much of the sugars from the grain as possible without extracting mouth-puckering tannins from the grain husks. Typically, 1.5 times as much water is used for sparging as for mashing (e.g., 8 lbs. malt at 2 qt./lb. = 4 gallon mash, so 6 gallons of sparge water). The temperature of the sparge water is important. The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH. This could lead to astringency in the beer.

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M_C

Misplaced_Canuck said:

So Palmer got it all wrong with his 170F, aye?

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I always believed Palmer meant the temp of the grain plus sparge water added should not exceed 170F. to get the sparge to 168-170, typically that requires sparge water that is 185-190F.


+1 on single sparge. Surprised that with all that sparging you aren't running into tannin issues, of course I guess it shouldn't be an issue since you are working with the preboil volume only. You are certainly raising the PH towards alkaline and if you are using hot water... recipe for tannin extraction.

CidahMastah said:

I always believed Palmer meant the temp of the grain plus sparge water added should not exceed 170F. to get the sparge to 168-170, typically that requires sparge water that is 185-190F.


+1 on single sparge. Surprised that with all that sparging you aren't running into tannin issues, of course I guess it shouldn't be an issue since you are working with the preboil volume only. You are certainly raising the PH towards alkaline and if you are using hot water... recipe for tannin extraction.

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I'm not sure how you can read "mash temperature" from "The temperature of the sparge water is important. The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH.".

Anyways. Never had a problem with tannins, ever.

M_C

Misplaced_Canuck said:

I'm not sure how you can read "mash temperature" from "The temperature of the sparge water is important. The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH.".

Anyways. Never had a problem with tannins, ever.

M_C

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Even so - Every brewing software out there (er ok at least beersmith ) calculates your "sparge water" temp like it does strike water:

add X gallons of water at X temp to achieve 168F. i.e. sparge water is usually always like 180F+. The result is a final temp of sparge water + grain bed of 168F

Perhaps after I read that (palmers book), I inferred the rest based on how I saw beersmith giving sparge water temps above 168F.

However heat alone won't cause tannin release as I understand it. You need heat and an alkaline PH, not one, both. Personally I have never had a tannin problem so I don't know from my own anecdotal experience.

+1 with Denny. I rarely do more than one sparge and get mid 70's. If you are not adjusting your sparge pH, then your pH rises after you first sparge and you begin to extract tannins. IMO, you get a better quality wort by not trying to extract every bit of sugar.

My process:

Adjust water chemistry for beer.

Heat water (1.5 qts/lb) to calculated temperature + 3deg to pre-heat cooler.
(about 4 gallons of 169 deg water for 10-12 lbs of grain)

Add water to cooler, cover and wait a few minutes to stabilize, then check temperature.

Dump in crushed grains all at once and stir. (The thinner mash helps to prevent any dough balls)

Let sit for a few minutes to stabilize and adjust mash temp with boiling or cold water, as needed.

Cover and then check temperature again after 30 minutes. (usually only drops about 1 deg) I do not stir as this will reduce the temperature.

After the 60 minute mark, check the temperature again, stir, look at and taste the wort (should be clear with grain particles and taste sweet) you can check coversion with iodine test, but i typcially do not.

I crack the outlet valve at about 1/8 to 1/4 open to get a steady but slow drain rate. (not as slow as fly sparging but not full open either). This help clarify the wort, keeps the grain bed from compacting and allow the grain to drain and release wort better. Takes about 10 minutes to drain.

I return about 1-2 quarts to the top of the grain bed using a spoon to prevent disturbing the grain bed. I drain as much out as I can. (I typically collect about 3 to 3.5 gallons.

I then add enough sparge water to get me my pre boil volume (about 3-3.5 gallons of 175 deg water). Stir, cover, let sit for 10 minutes, stir again and drain out same as above.

While I'm sparging, I pour my first runnings in my boil pot and start heating to mash out and start boiling. I'll add the second runnings when they are finished draining.

I usually check the SG of the first runnings, second runnings, combined wort (preboil) and final wort (after the boil). You can adjust my SG with some DME (if too low).

After reading this now I got a ? I am still fairly new to ag but I saw some videos of people opening the valve wide open to drain from there mash tun. Could this be a reason for my low efficiency? ( BTW I'm already working on my revvy style grain mill )

JoeyChopps said:

After reading this now I got a ? I am still fairly new to ag but I saw some videos of people opening the valve wide open to drain from there mash tun. Could this be a reason for my low efficiency? ( BTW I'm already working on my revvy style grain mill )

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Valve wide open is a batch sparge in process!

I crank mine wide open and drain the first runnings from the mash. Close valve, add sparge water to make up my preboil volume needs, stir, crank open the valve full bore and them it is time to boil the collected 1st and 2nd runnings.

I get 76-78% on regular days. Sometimes up into 80% land.

I am preparing for my 1st AG batch, Moster mill is in basement and grains are on their way.. so this thread was really good read.

I"ve got few questions:
- How important is to cover grain bed with sparge water?
I know that more sugars will be rinsed if we can cover it, but what if we want to do 2-3 sparges and sparge volume is not enough to cover grain bed (is it possible not to cover grain bed with some normal-design MLT after all)?

- At what flow do you sparge?
CidahMastah says that he wide opens his valve.. but Palmer mentions rule of thumb of 1 quart per minute. If we lauter this slow it will take 20-30 mins to get 5-6 gall.. I though that the point of batch sparge is to save time (not to get hasty and sloppy but do it quicker than with fly sparge) .. or 20-30 minutes are normal?

- Also, what crush size would you suggest for batch sparge?

diS said:

I am preparing for my 1st AG batch, Moster mill is in basement and grains are on their way.. so this thread was really good read.

I"ve got few questions:
- How important is to cover grain bed?
I know that more sugars will be rinsed if we can cover it, but what if we want to do 2-3 sparges and sparge volume is not enough to cover grain bed (is it possible not to cover grain bed with some normal-design MLT after all)?

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you have to cover your grain bed with mash water - or you won't get good conversion. Please try to get it out of your head than more sparging is better



Batch sparge, etc From Denny himself:

http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

I thought the same things you were when I started. all that stuff is just extra time and work IMO.

btw: there is nothing hasty or slopping about batch sparge I described. Unless getting comparable OGs to any other method, in about 2-5 minutes vs. 30 minutes or hours, is hasty and sloppy. In that case... *insert gospel preacher's voice* if slow batch sparging is wrong.... then I don't wanna be right

edit: I do open the valve at half mast to let the grain bed set for a few seconds, then open full bore.

My first traditional AG brew, I actually batch sparged without knowing what it was called. My brew partner just cranked it open when I went in the house, I came out and thought we ruined the beer. Turned out we got 76% efficiency and hit OG and and FG #'s (so that mash was all good). You might get a few points doing other methods. I will just add another oz or 2 to the grain bill and let beersmith do the work.

Dont be offended, that hasty or sloppy thing wasn't pointed to you, but for overall process of mashing and saving time with batch sparging.

I was thinking about covering grain bed with sparge water, not strike (I"ll edit post).. I think I"ll do double sparge just to get feeling, and after experimenting with few batches I"ll clearly know what suits best to me.

My first AG batch I got about 68% efficiency doing one sparge and using 1.25 qts./lb. in my mash. The next one I used 1.5 qts./lb. and did 2 batch sparges and got 78%. I now get around 80% or higher. I don't know which gave me better percentages but I am going to do my next batch at 1.25 qts./lb and 2 batch sparges and after that do 1.5 qts./lb. and 1 batch sparge and see where I get better results. I suspect it is a combination of both though.

diS said:

Dont be offended, that hasty or sloppy thing wasn't pointed to you, but for overall process of mashing and saving time with batch sparging.

I was thinking about covering grain bed with sparge water, not strike (I"ll edit post).. I think I"ll do double sparge just to get feeling, and after experimenting with few batches I"ll clearly know what suits best to me.

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covering grain bed has nothing to do with efficiency of batch sparging (maybe you are getting mixed up with fly sparging).

With batch sparge you add water and mix...the sugar concentration between the grain and the sparge water equilibrate and then you drain off the now-sugary sparge water.