Oxygenating wort before pitching technique

So lately, I have been brewing some higher gravity beers, and regardless of how muh yeast I pitch (liquid or dry) I seem to always stop short of where I want to be in FG. I tried a starter once, and I ended up with the same results.
For example, I recently brewed a 1.090 and pitched 1 pkg Wyeast 1056 along with 2 11.5 pkgs of US-05. I took a hydrometer reading on day 6 when I transfered to secondary, and it was at 1.030. After tasting the sweet sweet hydometer sample, I decided to pitch MORE US-05. I think I am just going to leave it in the secondary for another 2-3 weeks and see what happens.
I think my problem is poor oxygenation.

My current procedure fir a 5 gallon batch is to
1. cool the 3.5 gallons of wort,
2. add 1 gallon of cold water to the fermenter,
3. add the wort, and
4. then top off to the 5 gallon mark, vigorously pooring the water in.
5. pitch the yeast,
6. seal the fermenter
7. rock the fermenter gently for about 15-30 seconds.
8. leave it for 7-14 days before transfereing o secondary.

Is there a better way of oxygenating the wort at pitching time that doesn't require expensive equipment???

For a higher gravity beer making a starter is really helpful. I realize you are pitching extra yeast to make up for the high gravity, but when you make a starter and add some nutrients into the starter you are basically getting the yeast revved up for the big job ahead of them. They go into the wort in better health and ready to work.

As to the oxygenating, you are correct as that becomes more critical for a larger beer as well. The yeasts reproduction phase is often limited by the available oxygen. For a large beer you can help by oxygenating more than once. Basically give the fermenter another real good shake several hours after pitching the yeast to replace some of the oxygen the yeast have already used up.

Adding some yeast nutrient to the wort for a high gravity beer can be very helpful as well. 1/2 tsp/gallon is a good amount.

I have used Oxygen injection in my last three brews and i have noticed that they took off way quicker. And bescides that, if you use O2 you just have to RDWHAH.

FWIW, I have started straining my wort through a stailess steel mesh strainer. It does an amazing job at aerating the wort. Before that I had a special tip for my siphon hose that I picked up at my LHBS. It basically spread the wort out into a fountain like spray. I have found straining has helped me on a lot of levels (clarity, more volume, etc.) but aeration has definitely been the biggest improvement.

Dry yeast doesn't need aeration...the dry yeast mfrs. take care to put all the necessary nutrients in there. But you need to hydrate it first, especially if it's going into such a high gravity wort.

FWIW, I use a funnel with a strainer and it does aerate pretty well. There's usually so much foam in there it's tough to get the carboy full.

Are you brewing with extract or all grain?

According to a Basic Brewing Radio podcast I listened to recently, the most effective way to aerate your wort is by rocking it for about 5 minutes. It was even more effective than O2 through a 2 micron stone for an hour, IIRC. I think there was 90% saturation of dissolved oxygen from the rocking after the five minutes. Some guy used some testing device to find the difference between an aquarium pump, pure O2 and just sloshing it around.

I put a tennis ball under the bucket I use, and a tennis ball under the milkcrate my glass carboy lives in then just rock it back and forth, no need to get winded doing it as long as it's sloshing around in there.

Also, some brands of extract have more unfermentables in them. I'm just assuming you're using extract because of the top-off water, though.

I use a big whisk and beat the heck out of the wort prior to pitching. I figure the function of a whisk is to beat oxygen into whatever you're whisking, so it's the same thing. I use dry yeast almost exclusively and brew mostly higher-gravity brews and, so far, I haven't had an attenuation problem.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Dry yeast doesn't need aeration...the dry yeast mfrs. take care to put all the necessary nutrients in there. But you need to hydrate it first, especially if it's going into such a high gravity wort...

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Yes, I think hydrating dry yeast before pitching is important, but oxygenation and yeast nutrition are totally different subjects. I oxygenate my dry yeasts (S-04 and S-05) and I beleive it helps.

I found this on the FAQ page at wyeast. check it out http://www.wyeastlab.com/faqs.cfm?website=1#r42


30. What is the max level of O2 you can get in a carboy using air?

8 ppm.
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31. Approximately how long do you have to shake a 5 gallon carboy to get oxygen saturation (8ppm)?

45 seconds of vigorous shaking.

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32. How long do you have to run a stone with an aquarium pump to achieve O2 saturation (8ppm) in 5 gallons of wort?

5 minutes.
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33. How do you achieve higher than 8 ppm O2 levels in your wort? .

By injecting pure oxygen into your wort through a stone (1 min for 12 ppm). Or, by flowing pure oxygen into the carboy's head space and shaking for 20 seconds, twice.
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34. What factors are associated with ester (fruity) production?

Decreased pitch rate of yeast, increased fermentation temperature, and increased original gravity.

GrizlyGarou said:

According to a Basic Brewing Radio podcast I listened to recently, the most effective way to aerate your wort is by rocking it for about 5 minutes. It was even more effective than O2 through a 2 micron stone for an hour, IIRC. I think there was 90% saturation of dissolved oxygen from the rocking after the five minutes. Some guy used some testing device to find the difference between an aquarium pump, pure O2 and just sloshing it around.

Click to expand...

You are either misremembering or the BBR people are idiots and common sense should have prevented them from reporting findings that were clearly in error.

90% 02 saturation is impossible from incorporating air, even if the air saturation is 100%. I will leave the reason why as an exercise to the reader.

remilard said:

You are either misremembering or the BBR people are idiots and common sense should have prevented them from reporting findings that were clearly in error.

90% 02 saturation is impossible from incorporating air, even if the air saturation is 100%. I will leave the reason why as an exercise to the reader.

Click to expand...

I guess I'm going to have to listen to it again, then.

I'm positive that the results the guy got pointed to just shaking it around being the most effective in the shortest amount of time, though. I remember it seeming odd, so perhaps his dissolved oxygen meter was wrong. It's also possible they're idiots, I suppose.

pilotdane said:

Yes, I think hydrating dry yeast before pitching is important, but oxygenation and yeast nutrition are totally different subjects. I oxygenate my dry yeasts (S-04 and S-05) and I beleive it helps.

Click to expand...

By 'nutrients' I meant those required to build cell walls. In that sense O2 is a 'nutrient' because it is required to produce lipids in the cell wall. EDIT: I also aerate when using dry yeast but only because I can't prevent it when transferring to the fermenter (I don't shake the carboy though). So I can't really say from personal experience how dry yeast performs when not aerated, just going from what the dry yeast mfrs. claim.


Here's something from the Danstar site about it:

Yeast need a trace amount of oxygen in an anaerobic fermentation such as brewing to produce lipids in the cell wall. With out O2 the cell cannot metabolize the squalene to the next step which is a lipid. The lipids make the cell wall elastic and fluid. This allows the mother cell to produce babies, buds, in the early part of the fermentation and keeps the cell wall fluid as the alcohol level increases. With out lipids the cell wall becomes leathery and prevents bud from being formed at the beginning of the fermentation and slows down the sugar from transporting into the cell and prevents the alcohol from transporting out of the cell near the end of the fermentation. The alcohol level builds up inside the cell and becomes toxic then deadly.

Lallemand packs the maximum amount of lipids into the cell wall that is possible during the aerobic production of the yeast at the factory. When you inoculate this yeast into a starter or into the mash, the yeast can double about three time before it runs out of lipids and the growth will stop. There is about 5% lipids in the dry yeast.

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Regarding shaking vs. bubbling with a stone...I think that earlier post was confusing using air and a stone which is only marginally more effective than shaking the carboy. But neither can touch O2 through a stone. Air is only ~21% O2.

oldschool said:

I found this on the FAQ page at wyeast. check it out http://www.wyeastlab.com/faqs.cfm?website=1#r42


30. What is the max level of O2 you can get in a carboy using air?

8 ppm.
Back to top >>


31. Approximately how long do you have to shake a 5 gallon carboy to get oxygen saturation (8ppm)?

45 seconds of vigorous shaking.

Back to top >>


32. How long do you have to run a stone with an aquarium pump to achieve O2 saturation (8ppm) in 5 gallons of wort?

5 minutes.
Back to top >>


33. How do you achieve higher than 8 ppm O2 levels in your wort? .

By injecting pure oxygen into your wort through a stone (1 min for 12 ppm). Or, by flowing pure oxygen into the carboy's head space and shaking for 20 seconds, twice.
Back to top >>


34. What factors are associated with ester (fruity) production?

Decreased pitch rate of yeast, increased fermentation temperature, and increased original gravity.

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Please remember that dissolved oxygen saturation is (almost) entirely dependent upon your water (wort) temperature. Go here to see the differences - http://www.epa.gov/volunteer/stream/vms52.html

I'm no expert brewer but you need to be aerating your wort at the coolest possible temperature. You can dissolve a lot more O2 in your water at 65F than 100F (go to the above link). I don't often see this being discussed but it's very important to aerate cooled wort.

I don't aerate with dry yeast anymore and have not noticed any ill effects. Two packs of S-05 should be more than sufficient for your wort mentioned above. According to my experience as well as the http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html which is by far a more proven track record than most.

The liquid yeast seems like overkill. You should not be going to secondary with a 1.030 reading. I think you need to look at fermentation temps (what are they?) and your brewing process (what is it?).

I really think not hydrating the yeast (or even waiting 15 minutes after sprinkling it on top before mixing it in) and then pitching it into such a strong wort had a big influence on the high FG.

forces said:

I took a hydrometer reading on day 6 when I transfered to secondary, and it was at 1.030.

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Don't transfer to secondary until you've hit your final gravity. A big beer is going to take longer to ferment out.

It's been said but you just shouldn't be transfering a 1.090 beer to secondary on day 6. You should have waiting until it was done and beginning to clear which would have been no earlier than about 2 weeks. Hell, I'd wait 4.

Bobby_M said:

It's been said but you just shouldn't be transfering a 1.090 beer to secondary on day 6. You should have waiting until it was done and beginning to clear which would have been no earlier than about 2 weeks. Hell, I'd wait 4.

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Well, I have at 1.092 old ale that was at 1.022 (WY1968, thats done) and you could read the newspaper through it at 6 days. Every commercial brewery can finish fermenting big beers that fast too and I am just doing the same things they are (o2, commercial pitching rate, temperature control).

While I agree with leaving it alone until several days after it is done, I disagree on 2 weeks as a floor.

I think the suggestion to be adding Yeast Nutrient is a good one that's getting ignored here. Oxygenation is important, but things like Free Available Nitrogen (FAN) also have a major effect on the success of big beers - and you simply don't get a high enough concentration if you're doing a big extract brew. Adding a Brewvint Yeast Fuel capsule to the boil, or Fermaid-K, or Fermax, or Wyeast Beer Nutrient, can help your yeast along.

And it's not necessarily too late to add nutrient even at this stage, either. Just add the nutrient, rouse the yeast by gently swirling the carboy, and raise the temperature slightly to help the yeast along.

Average attenuation of 1056 is 75%, which from a 1.090 beer means you might expect to end at 1.022. So, you are not *way* too high...

In the other thread you mentioned you are doing partial boils. I take this to mean you are using extract? Extracts made by different manufacturers are mashed at different temperatures/have different amounts of fermentable sugars in them. I'm no expert on big beers, but my understanding is that if you want to finish dry, you need the mash to be lower than most commercial extracts are made at. A way around this would be to back off the extract and replace it with some highly fermentable corn sugar.

What I tried to say in your other thread is that ALL aspects of your process need to be considered as a whole: recipe; oxygenation; yeast count and health; fermentation temperature; time etc. Any one of these factors can lead to stalled fermentation or higher FG's than desired.

Note that there is a difference between stalled ferms and FGs too high. In the former, there is still fermentable sugar present. The yeast can often be roused (by warming back up and stirring gently, or at bottling time) and this can lead to a few more points lost or bottle bombs. A finished fermentation that is just too high is at least finished. Be aware that your hydro samples are of green, warm, uncarbonated beer. The taste will change after carbing, cooling and conditioning, so don't be too worried.

remilard said:

You are either misremembering or the BBR people are idiots and common sense should have prevented them from reporting findings that were clearly in error.

90% 02 saturation is impossible from incorporating air, even if the air saturation is 100%. I will leave the reason why as an exercise to the reader.

Click to expand...

GrizlyGarou said:

I guess I'm going to have to listen to it again, then.

I'm positive that the results the guy got pointed to just shaking it around being the most effective in the shortest amount of time, though. I remember it seeming odd, so perhaps his dissolved oxygen meter was wrong. It's also possible they're idiots, I suppose.

Click to expand...

I have listened to that episode and Grizly is correct they found the highest concentration of oxygen in the shaken sample. I believe they said that they got 90% of the max attainable o2 from the brief shaking (90% of 8ppm) not 90% saturation.

Breweries typically inject o2 inline inside the transfer pipes which is much more effiective as it maximizes contact with the wort and the o2 can not immediately escape the wort. I also this year discussed o2 injection with a local professional brewer and she pointed out that she always injected with the wort in the 65-68 degree range as it is more soluable in wort at that temperature and there is a difference in absorbtion even from 72 degrees (which is where I was injecting)

The problem with injecting with a stone is the o2 just bubbles through solution and into the top of the carboy and most is lost. I use a 2 micron stone and go for 60 seconds at an unknown flow rate. Even with this I was usually finishing my beers 2-3 points higher than anticipated.

After learning the things I learned a couple months ago from the brewer and the BBR podcast and here on HBT I changed up my oxygenating procedure. I try to get the wort below 70 degrees. I put a tennis ball under my better bottle. I shake and swirl for 30-60 seconds and let rest for a few minutes for the foam to drop. I then drop in my 2 micron stone and turn on the o2 for 60 seconds. While injecting o2 I continue to shake and swirl the carboy. This maximizes wort contact with the 02 flowing through it and in the headspace. For a heavy beer I do another lighter shake several hours after pitching the yeast. Since following this regimen, and maintaining good temp control and nutrient additions I have seen consistently lower FG's than I used to. Just my experience.

BioBeing said:

Average attenuation of 1056 is 75%, which from a 1.090 beer means you might expect to end at 1.022. So, you are not *way* too high...

A way around this would be to back off the extract and replace it with some highly fermentable corn sugar.

.

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That's funny, I was running that through my head shortly after posting this last night; that is the prospect of replacing LME/ DME with dextrose to improve my attenuation. What would be the tolerance there? no more than 25% dextrose? Certainly you wouln't want 5 lbs sugar and 5 lbs extract. And to all that asked; Yes I am doing extract.

From what I am reading, the things I need to change are;
-Leave it in the primary longer
-shake it longer
-Start using yeast nutrient
-keep using starters
-Take more care in wort temp at pitching time
*EDIT* - Read more and be patient

BTW - WOW, thanks for all the replies, this has been very educational.

forces said:

That's funny, I was running that through my head shortly after posting this last night; that is the prospect of replacing LME/ DME with dextrose to improve my attenuation. What would be the tolerance there? no more than 25% dextrose? Certainly you wouln't want 5 lbs sugar and 5 lbs extract. And to all that asked; Yes I am doing extract.

From what I am reading, the things I need to change are;
-Leave it in the primary longer
-shake it longer
-Start using yeast nutrient
-keep using starters
-Take more care in wort temp at pitching time
*EDIT* - Read more and be patient

BTW - WOW, thanks for all the replies, this has been very educational.

Click to expand...

Too much sugar will leave a "cidery" taste. BeerSmith suggests 5% max, but I think you can go higher than that: maybe 10% to 20%? Certainly a pound or two in a big beer is going to be OK. There is a table in one of my books, but I can't find it in the online How to Brew...

I'm gonna throw a wrench into the convo...

From what I've been reading recently, screw aerating wort.

Then again I'm a newbie and not a scientist, but basically the theory goes like this.

Yeast use oxygen only in the propagation phase of their lifespan, therefore, constant aeration of the starter (using an airlock, airstone, aquarium pump, and sterile filter) combined with repeated stepping up of the volume, thereby increasing cell count, provides you with a superstarter of yeast that is suspended in the propagation phase until pitching.

So, keep the starter horny, if you will.

Then, according to this theory, you can forego aeration of the wort and pitch the starter in its hungry phase. Adding oxygen to the wort would essentially keep them in the propagation phase, and you want them fermenting the wort not continuing their wanton orgy.

This is what I took from some recent reading and I'm gonna try it...

Here are two of the articles influencing this...

http://www.beertools.com/html/articles.php?view=245
and
http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices

Read to completion.

A sandwich after sex keeps me happy, and I'm hoping yeast may feel the same.

Eitherway I'm gonna try it and report back.

forces said:

For example, I recently brewed a 1.090 and pitched 1 pkg Wyeast 1056 along with 2 11.5 pkgs of US-05. I took a hydrometer reading on day 6 when I transfered to secondary, and it was at 1.030. After tasting the sweet sweet hydometer sample, I decided to pitch MORE US-05.

Click to expand...

Took a hydro today just to see what was going on, and the gravity came down from 1.030 to 1.022. That was my target with this brew, and I am now a happy brewer again.

Q. So what did we learn?
A. RDWHAHB, don't rush the primary fermentation, and don't trust the bubbles.

- judgming by the airlock, there couldn't have been more than 1 mm H2O in the secondary during that 8 point decrease.

I seem to remember that on the BBR episode they compared shaking to using an aquarium pump with air, not pure Oxygen.

I've been pouring back and forth between 2 buckets 4 or 5 times right before pitching. It generates a lot of foam and I get good vigorous fermentations. However, I also wind up bottling a lot of 1.02 batches (extract, ferm temps in high 60s) so wtfk. Anyone else pour back and forth like this?

StumpyJohnson said:

I'm gonna throw a wrench into the convo...

From what I've been reading recently, screw aerating wort.

Then again I'm a newbie and not a scientist, but basically the theory goes like this.

Yeast use oxygen only in the propagation phase of their lifespan, therefore, constant aeration of the starter (using an airlock, airstone, aquarium pump, and sterile filter) combined with repeated stepping up of the volume, thereby increasing cell count, provides you with a superstarter of yeast that is suspended in the propagation phase until pitching.

So, keep the starter horny, if you will.

Then, according to this theory, you can forego aeration of the wort and pitch the starter in its hungry phase. Adding oxygen to the wort would essentially keep them in the propagation phase, and you want them fermenting the wort not continuing their wanton orgy.

This is what I took from some recent reading and I'm gonna try it...

Here are two of the articles influencing this...

http://www.beertools.com/html/articles.php?view=245
and
http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices

Read to completion.

A sandwich after sex keeps me happy, and I'm hoping yeast may feel the same.

Eitherway I'm gonna try it and report back.

Click to expand...

Stumpy:

I applaud experimentation. Many myths abound about brewing process, and some have been debunked by people conducting side by side comparisons. You might want to try some side by side experiments before you declare "screw aerating wort"

I have seen consistent improvement in attenuation by injecting pure O2 for about 60 seconds into my wort. There are many pro breweries and other highly regarded brewers who also aerate with O2. So by all means brew without aerating if you like, but you may want to try it before you discard it as worthless.

As to your links, yes the beertools article does seem to speak against aerating, mainly due to concerns about not being able to monitor the o2 levels and possibly over saturating the wort. Moderation is the key there. The Maltose Falcons however support wort aeration in the article you referenced. You may want to re-read it.
This statement taken from the linked articel.

In terms of fermentation, aeration is also important but only in the early stages (first 6-24 hours). Aeration in later stages can oxidize beer constituents and lead to the development of off-flavors. Since aeration sets the stage for maltose fermentation and alcohol tolerance, it is easy to envision why insufficient aeration could lead to stuck fermentations or incomplete fermentations. Incomplete fermentations can be manifested as either high finishing gravities or the production of off-flavors especially diacetyl, acetaldehyde, and hydrogen sulfide. Insufficient aeration is also associated with excessive ester formation. The profound effect of aeration on yeast is further illustrated in studies where yeast from a poorly aerated beer was repitched into aerated wort and still did not perform well. Thus insufficient aeration can have a long-lasting effect on yeast.

Is there a better way of oxygenating the wort at pitching time that doesn't require expensive equipment???

Click to expand...

To answer the original question. I use a sanitized paint stirrer on a drill once my wort is in the fermenter aka bucket. I've noticed a considerable decrease in time it takes to start ferementing.

About the BBR podcast someone already corrected the 90% saturation thing. The guest also called and left James a voice mail the following week and corrected some of his numbers and the weren't as favorable as he originally repoted, but they were still good. I think its on e the next podcast James plays te guys voice mail.

Zen_Brew said:

Stumpy:

I applaud experimentation. Many myths abound about brewing process, and some have been debunked by people conducting side by side comparisons. You might want to try some side by side experiments before you declare "screw aerating wort"

Click to expand...

Yes yes yes! My goal is to brew 10 gal batches and develop a 5g control and a 5g test batch. The Maltose falcons article does advocate wort aeration, but it also confirmed some facts concerning the lifespan and oxygen requisite phases of yeast that the roving brewer article bases its theory on. I'm a never say never type of guy, new to brewing but not to experiments. So yes! I will definitely be doing some side by side experiments. I never meant to declare screw wort aeration per se but to play a bit of devils advocate. I will however be conducting and posting the results of my experiments.

Actually, I think a posted brew log would be sweet.

Post a recipe and every detail concerning its creation from beginning to peak tasting. Get enough of these and we could have our own empirical data to draw upon. WORD!