The thread about the Milds got me thinking a little more about this. It seems to me that a lot of people are focused on achieving greater and greater mash efficiencies, and that a low efficiency is bad. Certainly the more efficient the mash, the more formentable sugars you will get, the OG will be higher and you'll likely get more alcohol. But what about the flavor? Would you get more flavors from the malt in the final product if you used more base malt, but had less starch conversion (lower efficiency). I don't have a firm opinion either way. I'm seeking out any evidence one way or the other, either anecdotal or otherwise. Did that batch you made with low efficiency taste really good?
Certainly if one adds more specialty malts you get more flavor, and many of the specialty malts don't add a lot of fermentables to the wort. So then would not the same be true of flavor from a base malt? But what if you don't want a higher OG beer (like in a Mild)? It seems to me then that making your mash less efficient (shorter time, temp schedule, pH off, etc) would give you all of the flavor with less fermentables. Maybe a 20 min. mash at 148 F, then 160 F for 20 min. Or 20 min. @ 148 F then an extra long mashout to limit alpha amylase activity if a lower FG is desired, while still allowing time for maximal flavor release.
I guess the question is how fast are the flavor compunds released from the malt? Are they soluble and released right away or are they bound up and released by enzymatic action as the mash proceeds? In the case of the clove flavors in Wheat beers, I did do some reading and the precursors for this are mostly relased by enzyme action during the mash. Of course this flavor would not be appropriate in a Mild or a Pilsner. I haven't yet found any references for other flavor compounds.
Most on the scientific literature I see is geared towards maximizing production and minimizing oxidation in big breweries so it is a little hard to find information on poorer utilization. At the homebrew scale, adding an extra pound of base malt to each batch doesn't add much to the cost. If I'd get more flavor (without more alcohol) I'd do it.
I have a fuzzy recollection of reading in several books that there is some basis to this. The default efficiency in ProMash in 75%. I can't recall right now what efficiency rate is used in Jamil Z.s book, but I do know it is no more than 75%, and might be 70%. I'll check that tonight at home.
Certainly if one adds more specialty malts you get more flavor, and many of the specialty malts don't add a lot of fermentables to the wort. So then would not the same be true of flavor from a base malt? But what if you don't want a higher OG beer (like in a Mild)? It seems to me then that making your mash less efficient (shorter time, temp schedule, pH off, etc) would give you all of the flavor with less fermentables. Maybe a 20 min. mash at 148 F, then 160 F for 20 min. Or 20 min. @ 148 F then an extra long mashout to limit alpha amylase activity if a lower FG is desired, while still allowing time for maximal flavor release.
I guess the question is how fast are the flavor compunds released from the malt? Are they soluble and released right away or are they bound up and released by enzymatic action as the mash proceeds? In the case of the clove flavors in Wheat beers, I did do some reading and the precursors for this are mostly relased by enzyme action during the mash. Of course this flavor would not be appropriate in a Mild or a Pilsner. I haven't yet found any references for other flavor compounds.
Most on the scientific literature I see is geared towards maximizing production and minimizing oxidation in big breweries so it is a little hard to find information on poorer utilization. At the homebrew scale, adding an extra pound of base malt to each batch doesn't add much to the cost. If I'd get more flavor (without more alcohol) I'd do it.
I have a fuzzy recollection of reading in several books that there is some basis to this. The default efficiency in ProMash in 75%. I can't recall right now what efficiency rate is used in Jamil Z.s book, but I do know it is no more than 75%, and might be 70%. I'll check that tonight at home.