Larger Starters - Stepping Up Necessary?

Hey all,

Just a quick question regarding a starter. Brewing a 1.084 OG stout on next Wednesday and Mr. Malty tells me I need 3.5L of starter. Bit much, but I figured 3.5L of water (about a gallon) with 250g (about a half pound) each Light DME and Brown Sugar should both give me a starter similar to the actual wort (OG of the starter will be ~1.050) AND give me enough yeast to get a good fermentation going.

I've read a lot about stepping up starters though; something we're running a bit shy on time to do. From what I read, we should be starting by pitching 1-1.5L of the starter, leave it for a few days before chilling 24 hours, decanting and then pitching the remaining 2L of starter wort onto the slurry.

Is there a reason we can't just pitch our smack pack right into 3.5L of starter wort and leave it for a week before chilling/decanting?

Any help would be appreciated!

- Budista

RDWHAHB. Either way will work fine. I'd leave the sugar out though, and just make the starter wort with 100% DME to 1.030-1.040.

Thanks, 944.

I was under the understanding that you wanted a higher OG for a starter if it's going to be chewing on a bigger beer.

If it's okay to do 1.040 for a stepped up starter for a few days, we'll do that. DME isn't cheap 'round these parts.

If it sounds like I'm paranoid, it's because I'm paranoid . Had a high gravity porter almost not ferment on us (ended up getting to the low end of the yeast's attenuation after 3 or so months). Would rather avoid that headache this time.

- Budista.

If you've got an hour or so to kill and feel like educating yourself, Brew Strong has a good podcast on this:Brew Strong - Yeast Starters. It explains making the starter, stepping up, pros and cons, and a whole lot more.

I've done a bunch of research (not to mention the beginning of the starter) and have had about 1.5L of 1.038 starter ticking away for a couple days now. It's mostly flocced out, so I'm thinking it's about time to step it up.

A few questions:

When Mr. Malty says to make 3.5L of starter for your beer, does that mean 3.5L added together? As in... 1.5L then 2.0L = 3.5L? Or does he mean 1.0L -> 2.0L -> 3.5L sort of stepping? I can't find an answer to this one ANYWHERE.

Also, when adding the next bit of wort (I had brewed 3.0L and saved the other 1.5, but the extra wort now smells like really strong vinegar, so I'm going to remake it) do I want to chill and pitch the second step onto the slurry? Or should I just pour the next step of wort into the stuff already there?

Thanks again for your help,

Budista

Considered a stir plate?

Budista said:

I can't find an answer to this one ANYWHERE.

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You're overthinking it. Srsly.

You do not need to step it up. Since you've used the Mr Malty calculator, go ahead and enter in 1 gallon at 1.040 to see what your "starter's starter" needs. You'll find that it shows "No starter required". The number of viable yeast cells required for 1 gallon at 1.040 is 28 billion. A single yeast pack has ~100 billion. You'll be fine.

Budista said:

I've done a bunch of research (not to mention the beginning of the starter) and have had about 1.5L of 1.038 starter ticking away for a couple days now. It's mostly flocced out, so I'm thinking it's about time to step it up.

A few questions:

When Mr. Malty says to make 3.5L of starter for your beer, does that mean 3.5L added together? As in... 1.5L then 2.0L = 3.5L? Or does he mean 1.0L -> 2.0L -> 3.5L sort of stepping? I can't find an answer to this one ANYWHERE.

Also, when adding the next bit of wort (I had brewed 3.0L and saved the other 1.5, but the extra wort now smells like really strong vinegar, so I'm going to remake it) do I want to chill and pitch the second step onto the slurry? Or should I just pour the next step of wort into the stuff already there?

Thanks again for your help,

Budista

Click to expand...

If Mr. Malty says you need 3.5L of starter, that means make a 3.5L wort and dump in the number of yeast packets/vials it says. Unless your making 20 gallons of beer, than you shouldn't need to step up. In fact, stepping up is probably bad for your beer, unless your gravity is like 1.130 or something ridiculous. Seriously, just wash your yeast if you always want some on hand. Stepping up isn't a cost effective way of keeping yeast on hand, as you'll need a bunch of nutrients to keep them happy all the time.

Thanks for all the help.

I have a question, though. Adding the 2.5L of additional (reboiled) wort, as planned, I noticed a really powerful and harsh odor. Strong enough to make my eyes water. I would say it's like a combination of vinegar and paint thinner. I'm really, really hoping I didn't get an acetobacteria in the starter, but the starter doesn't TASTE vinegary or anything. Just a quick whiff if I remove the bung. It tastes like weak, sweet, yeasty beer. No noticeable off flavors.

Any ideas? Just wait for another 4 days before chilling to floc it? Get new yeast and try again?

- Budista

Though I haven't experienced it myself, I have read that yeast can produce some pretty potent and nasty smells while fermenting. Maybe that's what is going on with your starter?

I'll tel you how I do my starters: star san anything that is post boil, check you're pitch rate with www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html, determine what you need for a starter volume, I try to get the gravity of the starter to be the same as the beer I'm trying to make, pitch the yeast, put on a stir plate at the desired fermentation temp for three days, chill in the fridge for 2 days, siphon off the starter wort, and then pitch to your wort.

bootney said:

I'll tel you how I do my starters: star san anything that is post boil, check you're pitch rate with www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html, determine what you need for a starter volume, I try to get the gravity of the starter to be the same as the beer I'm trying to make, pitch the yeast, put on a stir plate at the desired fermentation temp for three days, chill in the fridge for 2 days, siphon off the starter wort, and then pitch to your wort.

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For a starter, you really want the wort to be about 1.040 to get the most out of it. Anything lower and the yeast don't go completely into a growth phase, and anything higher and you start to stress the yeast. I've heard many people say if you are making a 1.085 beer, then your starter should be the same, but that just isn't the case. With a starter, you want the best environment for your yeast, which is 1.040. You aren't making beer, you're making a starter. Everything else you said was the way it should be done, but making a starter the same OG as your beer is not always a good choice. Be kind to your yeast, and they will be kind to you.

For the OP. If you are dead set on stepping up, here is a good way to use mr malty to do that. http://seanterrill.com/2010/03/08/two-stage-starter-calculations/ If you are saving some of those from the first batch, youll have to approximate the number. Like, if you have 50 billion cells after the first starter, and you save 1/4 of that for another starter, you're only pitching 37.5 billion, and you'll use 12.5 billion for your "new starter" number instead of automatic viability. Hope this helps!

kc,

Thanks for pointing that out. I guess I read that you wanted the starter to match the batch gravity to avoid shocking the yeast. Thanks for the heads up.