Please help me in understanding mash pH

JeffoC6 said:

So what would you recommend for me then? I don't really want to be adjusting my waters each and every brew. I'm sort of low maintenance, and just want to brew tasty beer. I'm not going for world class right now.

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Aha...

If that's so , then you'd better look for a style or recipe which can be brewed using the spring water and your ingredients in an easier way .

I had the same problem , then I found my water and ingredients are suitable for brewing "Brown Porter" .

Now I'm brewing this style with much less difficulties and I still use bottled spring water .

Hector

JeffoC6 said:

Thanks all.

Here's my plan moving forward with my next batch:

Remember, this is for an AG 1-Gallon BIAB batch. Here are the notes that I've compiled throughout the day to adjust for the off flavor that I've been having. Please critique this process and advise of your thoughts...

Use 3 gallons of 100% RO water (If I can find it) and add 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of calcium chloride.

Don't go to 170 when mashing out. I may be extracting tannins. Go to 160-165

Because I'm crushing my grains "fine," even though I'm doing BIAB, I may still be getting a lot of grain material in my boil, which could be extracting tannins. For my next batch, don't have my grains crushed as fine, and simply adjust my efficiency moving forward for a less fine crush.

After pulling the bag out of my kettle, run the collected wort through a doubled up strainer and another paint strainer bag to filter out particles/grain material. The strainers and paint strainer bag will filter out any particles/grain material almost like a filter. This will help to reduce the amount of grain material I may be boiling, and thus, causing my astringent/tannin flavor.

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The procedure sounds fine, although I don't BIAB and don't know that much about it. I'm thinking that you'd use about 3 pounds of grain for a 1 gallon batch? The only thing that I can't wrap my head around with BIAB is the thin mash- it's entirely possible (at least in theory) that a 3 quart/pound mash ratio would increase the mash pH but I know there are many BIAB brewers who do that.

If you don't have a pH meter, perhaps try running your water (using RO water) and the 3 grams of calcium chloride in a mash calculator to guestimate the probable mash pH? Or I could help you with that if it seems a bit overwhelming. I use Bru'n water, but I started with EZ water calculator which worked just fine. My gut is telling me that with only two-row malt and no crystal malt, that a 3 quarts/pound mash would still result in a high mash pH. But it's still going to be better than not doing any adjustments, so it would be worth it.

Yooper said:

The procedure sounds fine, although I don't BIAB and don't know that much about it. I'm thinking that you'd use about 3 pounds of grain for a 1 gallon batch? The only thing that I can't wrap my head around with BIAB is the thin mash- it's entirely possible (at least in theory) that a 3 quart/pound mash ratio would increase the mash pH but I know there are many BIAB brewers who do that.

If you don't have a pH meter, perhaps try running your water (using RO water) and the 3 grams of calcium chloride in a mash calculator to guestimate the probable mash pH? Or I could help you with that if it seems a bit overwhelming. I use Bru'n water, but I started with EZ water calculator which worked just fine. My gut is telling me that with only two-row malt and no crystal malt, that a 3 quarts/pound mash would still result in a high mash pH. But it's still going to be better than not doing any adjustments, so it would be worth it.

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You completely lost me

Yooper said:

(You don't need magnesium, sodium, or carbonate. ).

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Give me a reason for that , please .

Hector

JeffoC6 said:

You completely lost me

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In theory, when you mash "thin" (lots of water, little grain), the pH buffers (chemicals that help hold or slow pH movements) are more diluted and less effective. Buffers are somewhat resistant to dilution unless you get very near certain points (beyond this discussion).

Lots of BIAB'ers have good luck mashing with all their water, but Yooper is saying, just to be safe, maybe mash "thicker"... i.e. 1.25 quarts water to 1 lb grain, or maybe 1.5:1.

Save the rest of the water for mash-out.

GotPushrods said:

In theory, when you mash "thin" (lots of water, little grain), the pH buffers (chemicals that help hold or slow pH movements) are more diluted and less effective. Buffers are somewhat resistant to dilution unless you get very near certain points (beyond this discussion).

Lots of BIAB'ers have good luck mashing with all their water, but Yooper is saying, just to be safe, maybe mash "thicker"... i.e. 1.25 quarts water to 1 lb grain, or maybe 1.5:1.

Save the rest of the water for mash-out.

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But I don't know how to mash out for BIAB without using all of my water

JeffoC6 said:

But I don't know how to mash out for BIAB without using all of my water

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That's okay to use the rest of your water, that's actually what I'm saying.


I don't know your exact numbers but here's an example:

Recipe is 3 lbs of malt.
Say you want 2.5 gallons to start the boil.
3 lbs of malt will absorb about 0.3 gallons of water, so you'll need 2.8 gallons prepared for your brewday. (I'd prepare 3, easier to calculate salt additions and you'll have a little extra in case you're short).

Heat 1.5 gallons to about 160, then stir in the grain well. Mash temperature will settle about 152. That will be 6 qts water / 3 lbs grain = 2 qts per pound. A good mash thickness for BIAB.

After mashing, heat the other 1.3 gallons to about 175 and pour it in.

Stir good, temp will settle in the mid/high 160s. Lift out the bag, let it drain, and you should have ~2.5 gallons ready to boil.

hector said:

Give me a reason for that , please .

Hector

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A reason? Well, for brewing these items are not traditionally used/added. There are far better choices, for multiple reasons, but sometimes there is excessive magnesium, sodium, and carbonate in water that needs to be removed/lessened so RO water is used to dilute it. Water extremely high in those shouldn't be used for brewing.

Magnesium is already present is sufficient quantities in malt, and in relatively small quantities it has a bitter and sour flavor. The worst, though is that additional magnesium has a laxative effect. It's not necessary for yeast health, and it's not helpful for mash pH adjustment.

Sodium isn't too bad in very small amounts, but it also isn't necessary for yeast health, conversion, mash pH adjustment, and there is a taste threshold that is pretty low. "Salty" beer doesn't taste good. If the sulfate level is fairly high, a beer with significant sodium will taste harshly bitter.

Carbonate is an alkaline ion, which would raise pH but isn't usually necessary except as chalk and even then it's not necessary. If a pH is too low (rarely the case), it's usually better to adjust with pickling lime unless someone has a way to bubble co2 through the water so the chalk can dissolve.

GotPushrods said:

That's okay to use the rest of your water, that's actually what I'm saying.


I don't know your exact numbers but here's an example:

Recipe is 3 lbs of malt.
Say you want 2.5 gallons to start the boil.
3 lbs of malt will absorb about 0.3 gallons of water, so you'll need 2.8 gallons prepared for your brewday. (I'd prepare 3, easier to calculate salt additions and you'll have a little extra in case you're short).

Heat 1.5 gallons to about 160, then stir in the grain well. Mash temperature will settle about 152. That will be 6 qts water / 3 lbs grain = 2 qts per pound. A good mash thickness for BIAB.

After mashing, heat the other 1.3 gallons to about 175 and pour it in.

Stir good, temp will settle in the mid/high 160s. Lift out the bag, let it drain, and you should have ~2.5 gallons ready to boil.

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Let's try it with a recipe I'm going to brew on Sunday. Ed Wort's Oktoberfest:

Here are my stats:
1 gallon batch
2.54 lbs grains
I've got it calculated to using a total of 7.8 quarts of water (accounting for a 75 min. boil off rate and loss of wort in grain)
70% efficiency
Mash at 154 for 90 min.

My current process is that I heat the 7.8 quarts of water to the strike temp, add my grains, and hit my mash temp. Then I hold for the 90 min. mash. Afterwards, I stir constantly until I hit 170, the kill the heat and let sit for 10 min. After that, I pull my bag out and start my boil. My calculations always leave me with almost the exact amount I need (1-gallon) without having to top off.

How would you break this out like you did above?

GotPushrods said:

That's okay to use the rest of your water, that's actually what I'm saying.


I don't know your exact numbers but here's an example:

Recipe is 3 lbs of malt.
Say you want 2.5 gallons to start the boil.
3 lbs of malt will absorb about 0.3 gallons of water, so you'll need 2.8 gallons prepared for your brewday. (I'd prepare 3, easier to calculate salt additions and you'll have a little extra in case you're short).

Heat 1.5 gallons to about 160, then stir in the grain well. Mash temperature will settle about 152. That will be 6 qts water / 3 lbs grain = 2 qts per pound. A good mash thickness for BIAB.

After mashing, heat the other 1.3 gallons to about 175 and pour it in.

Stir good, temp will settle in the mid/high 160s. Lift out the bag, let it drain, and you should have ~2.5 gallons ready to boil.

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Yes, that's probably the way I'd approach it as well. Or even lift out the grainbag and just pour the final 1.3 gallons over the grain bed to sparge (rinse) the grains.

Like I said, plenty of people do add all the water needed right at the beginning. But if there are mash pH problems, that could possibly be compounded by that much water in such a small grainbill.

Does that make sense? As Gotpushrods said, that is sort of a large amount of water for a relatively small amount of grain. That much water "dilutes" the mash, so to speak, and as a result may have the pH rise quite a bit. That could very well be what is going on here- especially if the Poland Spring water has some alkalinity. (I didn't see an actual figure for the actual current alkalinity in the water info). By not using so much water in the mash, and instead using a sparge, that could fix a pH issue if that is indeed the problem.

hector said:

I think distilled water is not a good option for you , since there are no minerals .

You also need Magnesium , Sodium and Carbonate Ions .

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You do not need magnesium, sodium or carbonate for most beers (which means that there are some for which you do). A little magnesium and sodium will not hurt (and for beer styles which depend on the sour/bitterness of magnesium or the saltiness of sodium some of these is desired). Carbonate will eat your lunch. That is why you never add it to brewing water except in those cases where a lot of high kilned malt is being used and when those cases occur slaked lime (calcium hydroxide) is doubtless a better choice. Distilled or RO water with some calcium chloride and/or calcium sulfate is fine for most beers.

Some will point out that magnesium is important as an enzyme co factor. This is true but there is plenty of magnesium in the malt itself to fulfill that role.

ajdelange said:

You do not need magnesium, sodium or carbonate for most beers (which means that there are some for which you do). A little magnesium and sodium will not hurt (and for beer styles which depend on the sour/bitterness of magnesium or the saltiness of sodium some of these is desired).
Some will point out that magnesium is important as an enzyme co factor. This is true but there is plenty of magnesium in the malt itself to fulfill that role.

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Thanks dear "ajdelange" for your explanation .

I meant the minimum necessary amount of these minerals and I thought the Carbonate is necessary for the buffer system to stabilize the pH .

Hector

JeffoC6 said:

Let's try it with a recipe I'm going to brew on Sunday. Ed Wort's Oktoberfest:

Here are my stats:
1 gallon batch
2.54 lbs grains
I've got it calculated to using a total of 7.8 quarts of water (accounting for a 75 min. boil off rate and loss of wort in grain)
70% efficiency
Mash at 154 for 90 min.

My current process is that I heat the 7.8 quarts of water to the strike temp, add my grains, and hit my mash temp. Then I hold for the 90 min. mash. Afterwards, I stir constantly until I hit 170, the kill the heat and let sit for 10 min. After that, I pull my bag out and start my boil. My calculations always leave me with almost the exact amount I need (1-gallon) without having to top off.

How would you break this out like you did above?

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Morning all, I just didn't want this question to get buried.
I leave for vacation next week, and was going to brew up and Oktoberfest before I left so when I came back, I could bottle it and then let it condition until October. I want to brew this up tomorrow, but really need to get a better understanding of exactly what I'm going to be doing regarding additions to my water, what kind of water, and my actual process.

Thanks in advance for all the advise. I'm actually heading to the LHBS after work today to pick up some additives that have been outlined so far in this thread. All I need now are some suggestions as to what to do with this. Your guidance is greatly appreciated.

For an O'fest use about equal portions of Pils, Vienna and Munich I with RO water to which about half a teaspoonful of CaCl2 has been added per 5 gallons. Use a decoction mashing profile if you are up to it and ferment at 48 F with the Wyeast O'fest strain. This is important as the White Labs equivalent does not perform (at least it didn't for me the three times I tried it). Slowly lower the temperature (1 - 2 °/day) to 33 °F and hold for a couple of weeks, then transfer to lagering kegs being sure a fair amount of yeast goes with the beer i.e. if it has dropped clear agitate it to the point where the yeast is back in suspension and then wait while most of it resettles. You don't want clear beer going into the lagering vessels.

Maybe I'm over-simplifying things but hear me out. To the OP - if all of your beer is using bottled water and you have a consistent problem, why not try a very simple experiment. Rather than trying to make things more complicated, make things less. Use tap water.

Does your water from the tap taste ok? (I assume it does - tap water in the US is VASTLY more regulated and tested than bottled). If so, and you are worried about chlorene go get a campden tablet and toss it in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campden_tablets

There's no downside. If you're making unacceptable beer now then the worst this will do is make more unacceptable beer. The municipalities have to test and provide water anaisys if you ask - most post them on their websites.

The simplest solution is often the best.

hector said:

....I thought the Carbonate is necessary for the buffer system to stabilize the pH .

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Carbonic/bicarbonate/carbonic does, in pairs, buffer but the first pair buffers to pH 6.38 and the latter 10.38 (the 10 buffer supplied with pH meters is a bicarbonate/carbonate buffer).

brycelarson said:

Use tap water.

.....The simplest solution is often the best.

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True unless the simple solution is a recipe for disaster (perhaps too strong a word - let's say 'brewing problems') which it might or might not be in this case. The simplest guaranteed solution is RO with a bit of calcium chloride per the Primer. The two problems with tap water are unsuitability (usually because of high bicarbonate or sulfate levels) and variability with season as the supplier draws from different sources and blends or as the sources themselves change (snow meltoff...). Now if OP lived in the Pacific Northwest (which he doesn't) using tap water with some CaCl2 would indeed be the simplest and a very good way to go. If not, then RO is the second best thing and second best only because there is some cost/effort involved in obtaining it. It is certainly suitable and always predictable (unless the membrane fails).

ajdelange said:

Now if OP lived in the Pacific Northwest (which he doesn't) using tap water with some CaCl2 would indeed be the simplest and a very good way to go. If not, then RO is the second best thing and second best only because there is some cost/effort involved in obtaining it. It is certainly suitable and always predictable (unless the membrane fails).

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With all due respect, if you think the only tap water in the US that is useful for creating great beers is in the Pacific NW you're sorely mistaken. What water do you think commercial breweries use? They use the same water that flows to the tap in your house. Go ask your favorite micro brewery or brew pub where they get their water - it's not being trucked in.

I agree that municipal water can change seasonally - but it's highly regulated and tested constantly. Any sort of water you're buying isn't regulated anywhere near as closely.

brycelarson said:

...if you think the only tap water in the US that is useful for creating great beers is in the Pacific NW you're sorely mistaken.

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No, I don't think that nor do I think that's what I wrote. What I think I wrote was that Pacific NW water is one of few municipal (tap) waters that allow brewers to use the KISS method with confidence. The implications here are that because it is always the same and low in mineral content a brewer always has consistent and total control of the mineral profile.

brycelarson said:

What water do you think commercial breweries use? They use the same water that flows to the tap in your house.

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Often they don't. Some operations consistently use the local water untreated thinking that it is the brewing equivalent of terroir. I don't necessarily disagree with this philosophy (it was taught at UCD for years) but it is limiting. I know one guy who makes beautiful highly hop flavored ales but his Pils is pretty bad because the sulfate is high. He's installing an RO unit. Other breweries, especially the larger ones treat their water to varying degrees depending on the kind(s) of beer the operation is creating often, in the better ones, basing the treatment on daily water analysis.

brycelarson said:

Go ask your favorite micro brewery or brew pub where they get their water..

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My favorite micro brewer is the guy installing the RO unit. I don't have to ask him because we've discussed it at length.

brycelarson said:

....- it's not being trucked in.

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I know of at least one case where it is - a Gordon Biersch but can't remember which one (in the limy midwest somewhere).

brycelarson said:

I agree that municipal water can change seasonally - but it's highly regulated and tested constantly.

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In some places the water quality is uniform and in some cases it varies widely. The testing isn't much help to the brewer because he doesn't get the data until the annual report is published if the data he wants is published at all. It isn't much good to him to know that the alkalinity was 50 last January and rose to 95 last June. The beers he made then are probably all gone.

brycelarson said:

Any sort of water you're buying isn't regulated anywhere near as closely.

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In most cases bottled water comes out of the tap at the bottling plant. They may or may not do any processing to it but if they do it is usually simple filtering and/or UV treatment. I do not advocate using bottled water. With an RO system and inexpensive TDS/conductivity meter (which checks up on the RO system) you know exactly what you are getting. You don't have to do any testing at all or at worst a simple conductivity check, or rely on any outdated report.

I realize this isn't for everybody but if you want to be in control of your water this is the simplest way to do it. I guess I should add an 'IMO' as you do have to obtain/operate the RO system or drive somewhere to get RO water. The alternative is doing an analysis yourself before each brew day (doable but a PITA) followed by salt adjustments and probably dilution which uses RO water anyway so you might as well use all RO and save the analysis. The exception being the lucky guys in the Pacific North West.

You're point is well taken - especially the terroir aspect of local brews.

Here's my take on things. I have the great benefit of having excellent water for brewing. I have at various times in my brewing history spent a lot of time, money and resources on water adjustment and treatment. I have since pulled back on that nearly completely. I'm sure that my beers aren't as consistent as yours are. I do brew excellent beer however (and some terrible ones ). I'm sure that at some point I will come around to all of those jars of additives and jump into the water profiles again - but for now I'm just brewing tasty beer, keeping my brew day simple and enjoying life.

My point is simply that excellent beer can and is made from municipal water. The simplest experiment eh OP can do is to replace the portion of his brew that he is suspect of. He already has a faucet in his house providing water that is safe to drink. If he replaces the bottled water with tap water and his brew has the same flaw - then it's a good indication that he needs to investigate another area of his process.

brycelarson said:

tap water in the US is VASTLY more regulated and tested than bottled

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Only the compounds that can hurt you or give you cancer.

The aesthetic mineral components (what are important for brewing) have very wide acceptable ranges. Here in Phoenix, it can rain 20 miles north of me, and even a 50/50 mix of my water to RO goes from decent porter to decent pale ale water. In a matter of DAYS! And the report comes out once a year. It's not worth trying in some places, it's just too variable.

Can you imagine how expensive water would be if it was required to be 5 ppm calcium and 30 ppm total alkalinity?? Well it would stink...literally because nobody would shower.

ajdelange said:

I realize this isn't for everybody but if you want to be in control of your water this is the simplest way to do it.

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It's what I do now for my water, which is highly alkaline at 342 total alkalinity (and just about every mineral in the water analysis is quite high ). And I thank AJ for his guidance in the primer.

I only wish I had started this right off the bat, but I fell for the "if your water tastes good it's OK for brewing, (even extract)" advice. I'm still waiting to taste my first brew made this way, but the others have a bite to them, and aftertaste. Disappointing.

Onlooker said:

It's what I do now for my water, which is highly alkaline at 342 total alkalinity (and just about every mineral in the water analysis is quite high ). And I thank AJ for his guidance in the primer.

I only wish I had started this right off the bat, but I fell for the "if your water tastes good it's OK for brewing, (even extract)" advice. I'm still waiting to taste my first brew made this way, but the others have a bite to them, and aftertaste. Disappointing.

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I used to live in MO, and I can tell you that the first beer I ever did RO + salts was the fastest I've ever kicked a keg. Disappointing and amazing at the same time.

Onlooker said:

It's what I do now for my water, which is highly alkaline at 342 total alkalinity (and just about every mineral in the water analysis is quite high ). And I thank AJ for his guidance in the primer.

I only wish I had started this right off the bat, but I fell for the "if your water tastes good it's OK for brewing, (even extract)" advice. I'm still waiting to taste my first brew made this way, but the others have a bite to them, and aftertaste. Disappointing.

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So you had the same taste that I had?
What exactly are you doing now with your water?

JeffoC6 said:

So you had the same taste that I had?
What exactly are you doing now with your water?

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Well, it's tough to know if it's the same or not, but it sounds like it may be; though my taste experience doesn't sound as extreme as yours. But different people have different taste palates and different thresholds.

I got a RO filtering set up (I figured it was better in the long run than buying it by the gallon. And I use it to mix with StarSan for a more stable solution that will last a long time.) and use the guidance in the primer, for the most part.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

I've tweaked it a bit using this: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/ and AJ's and mabrungard's advice on this forum. It's been a bit of a learning process but ultimately the end process is quite simple once you nail it down. It's not like you've got to try to adapt to a constantly changing water chemistry. That would be a pain, for sure.

I have been using 90% RO and 10% tap water. I could use 100% RO but I thought I'd try it this way first. Then I add about 2-3% sauermalz (acidulated malt) to my mash and usually 4 grams of Calc. Chloride to just the mash. That gives me a good overall water profile for the light hybrid type beers I've brewed this way. And I'll make other tweaks as necessary as I brew other beer styles (like maybe dropping the sauermalz if the grain bill gives me the pH I want on it's own). And I bought a pH meter.

The jury's still out but I'm confident (hopeful?) that I'll get good results. And I may try the next brew with 100% RO for comparison.

I understand your frustration here, just be glad you've only brewed 1 gal batches and not 5 gal, as I did! But you don't have to become a chemistry expert to find YOUR solution. Once you get there it will just be a small bit more in the prep of your mash.

I sure hope you figure it out and get some great beer.

Onlooker said:

Well, it's tough to know if it's the same or not, but it sounds like it may be; though my taste experience doesn't sound as extreme as yours. But different people have different taste palates and different thresholds.

I got a RO filtering set up (I figured it was better in the long run than buying it by the gallon. And I use it to mix with StarSan for a more stable solution that will last a long time.) and use the guidance in the primer, for the most part.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

I've tweaked it a bit using this: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/ and AJ's and mabrungard's advice on this forum. It's been a bit of a learning process but ultimately the end process is quite simple once you nail it down. It's not like you've got to try to adapt to a constantly changing water chemistry. That would be a pain, for sure.

I have been using 90% RO and 10% tap water. I could use 100% RO but I thought I'd try it this way first. Then I add about 2-3% sauermalz (acidulated malt) to my mash and usually 4 grams of Calc. Chloride to just the mash. That gives me a good overall water profile for the light hybrid type beers I've brewed this way. And I'll make other tweaks as necessary as I brew other beer styles (like maybe dropping the sauermalz if the grain bill gives me the pH I want on it's own). And I bought a pH meter.

The jury's still out but I'm confident (hopeful?) that I'll get good results. And I may try the next brew with 100% RO for comparison.

I understand your frustration here, just be glad you've only brewed 1 gal batches and not 5 gal, as I did! But you don't have to become a chemistry expert to find YOUR solution. Once you get there it will just be a small bit more in the prep of your mash.

I sure hope you figure it out and get some great beer.

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Thanks man. I'm trying to figure it out before Sunday though, as I'm going to be brewing EdWort's Oktoberfest (with Ale yeast) and don't want to go down the same road I've been going down. I don't know where I can get RO water around me, so based on Yooper's advise, I'm going to get some distilled water and add some calcium chloride to each gallon of water that I use. Hope it works :/

JeffoC6 said:

I don't know where I can get RO water around me, so based on Yooper's advise, I'm going to get some distilled water and add some calcium chloride to each gallon of water that I use. Hope it works :/

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RO or distilled, pretty much equivalent for our purposes here.

So as an update to this thread, I have since watched BobbyM's youtube videos on water chemistry, and it made a little more sense to me.
I've also gone onto Ward Lab's site and they are sending me a sampling bottle and I'm going to get the W6 Household Mineral test on my tap water.
After I get the test results back, I'm going to try out this EZ Water Calculator (same that I saw Bobby use on the youtube videos) and input my results.

I just read back through this thread again and am no longer completely lost. While I'm still far from understanding, I at least now have a base understanding as to what's going on. I'm hoping you can all teach me moving forward, and help me hone in on building my water, be it the tap water I have or distilled water.

JeffoC6 said:

So as an update to this thread, I have since watched BobbyM's youtube videos on water chemistry, and it made a little more sense to me.
I've also gone onto Ward Lab's site and they are sending me a sampling bottle and I'm going to get the W6 Household Mineral test on my tap water.
After I get the test results back, I'm going to try out this EZ Water Calculator (same that I saw Bobby use on the youtube videos) and input my results.

I just read back through this thread again and am no longer completely lost. While I'm still far from understanding, I at least now have a base understanding as to what's going on. I'm hoping you can all teach me moving forward, and help me hone in on building my water, be it the tap water I have or distilled water.

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I know it's overwhelming at first. But if I can learn it and have a vague understanding, I"m sure it'll come easier for you!

I found that EZ water was a good place to start, and as I learned more and more I started using Bru'n water. Even if the Bru'n water spreadsheet seems over your head right now, I'd suggest downloading it and reading through it. He's got lots of information under a tab called "Water Knowledge". That will help with understanding, and he's got good explanations there.

Another place to learn a bit about water that really helped me is in Kai Troester's website, braukaiser.com. He also references AJ deLange's paper on akalinity and hardness, which is worth reading.

One of the things I like best about this forum is that brewing water experts like ajdelange have been great about explaining this when I've asked and it's really helped me understand the basics.

Thanks Yoop.

As an aside, I opened up one of my Cascade and Chinook IPA's the other night that had been in the fridge for about 2 weeks, fermented at 3, and bottle conditioned at 4 (weeks).

When I opened it and poured, the hop aroma was completely overtaken by a metallic/astringency bite. My first sip made me shiver and I couldn't taste any hops. It was simply bitter, but not a good IPA bitter.

It's gotta be from my water/mash/pH...I know there isn't an infection or sanitation problem, and the beer itself was carbed perfectly.

I really want to get to the bottom of this, and I think figuring out my water/etc. is the best place to start so I can start tasting and experiencing IPA's (and other brews) the way that they should be experienced, rather than all IPA's tasting the same.

JeffoC6 said:

Thanks Yoop.

As an aside, I opened up one of my Cascade and Chinook IPA's the other night that had been in the fridge for about 2 weeks, fermented at 3, and bottle conditioned at 4 (weeks).

When I opened it and poured, the hop aroma was completely overtaken by a metallic/astringency bite. My first sip made me shiver and I couldn't taste any hops. It was simply bitter, but not a good IPA bitter.

It's gotta be from my water/mash/pH...I know there isn't an infection or sanitation problem, and the beer itself was carbed perfectly.

I really want to get to the bottom of this, and I think figuring out my water/etc. is the best place to start so I can start tasting and experiencing IPA's (and other brews) the way that they should be experienced, rather than all IPA's tasting the same.

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You will! Just using distilled water and adding back the CaCl2 will make such a big difference in the current batch that you'll be hooked into this from now on. I promise.

I finally bought my own RO system this spring, after hauling water from the store for a couple of years. Once they got rid of the "water machine" (I guess I was the only one buying it!), I knew I couldn't go back to all tap water even though our water tastes great. I did a couple of batches using slaked lime to reduce my alkalinity but that was a huge pain for me, so I bought the RO system. That's the difference using tap water vs. RO water
with salts made in my beer! My beer was never bad before, but it just wasn't as good as it could be.

A step at a time and then one day you will realize you know what you are doing. You don't have to understand chemistry like Ajdelange and Martin and others to know how to adjust your water for brewing.

If I were you I'd try and find some RO and a few basic salts and just give it a go. Post a recipe and someone here will show you what they would do in order to brew that recipe.