Should i dump the batch

Hey All,

Im hoping i can get some good advice on this query

I brewed a Brewferm Christmas Beer about 7 weeks ago,

The OG was 1.085 and the final gravity was 1.027, i was worried about this when i was bottling as i thought it was a bit high, especially after 3 weeks in the fermenter.

I bottled as per the instructions with no priming sugar and it has been sitting for exactly a month now, I decided out of curiosity to try one last night to see how its progressing and i was very suprised to see that it was flat, no carbonation whatsoever. tasted very sweet still so it looks like it hasnt conditioned whatsoever.

The instructions do say to condition for at least 3 months but now im thinking that 2 more months will not change the beer at all.

Im half considering dumping it and starting a new batch with the bottles i used.

Has anyone any advice??

Cheers for the help

Why no priming sugar? That makes no sense. I'm guessing that fermentation may have finished early with your FG reading. I would buy some of those carving tabs, uncap them, drop some in each, and recap. Then wait two weeks and see where you're at. Don't dump it.

Looks like this has come up before:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/noob-question-about-no-sugar-brewferm-christmas-ale-206375/

Based on some of the comments in that thread, a little more time in bottles might actually help.

I also agree with the other comments in that thread that say it's probably better to let the fermentation go all the way to completion (as determined by the gravity not changing over a several day period) and then adding priming sugar when you bottle.

Cheers for the help, ye maybe some carb drops might help.

im not sure why they say no priming sugar but i followed it none the less as i presume they know what they are talking about.

the gravity was the same from day 14 right up to day 21 when i bottled. so i def thought the fermenting was complete.

I really dont want to wait the required 3 months or more to find out i have horribly tasting flat sweet beer.

its sounds like whats refered to as the "prohibition method" were by you bottle before the final gravity has been reach and the remaining fermentation produces enough Co2 to carb the bottles.

Well whatever its doing in the bottles, its certainly taking its fecking time!!!

Bottles are cheap since they are nearly infinitely reusable. Buy another set of bottles and let this beer sit in a warm location to see if it will carb up. If it doesn't carb up, then put in the carbonation tabs and let it carb. You're only out the time then. You don't have to dump a beer that might be just excellent with more time.

shamfein said:

im not sure why they say no priming sugar but i followed it none the less as i presume they know what they are talking about.

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The instructions vary widely in accuracy between different kit producers.

In my opinion, it is really dumb of their instructions to not recommend using priming sugar. Their instructions assume you will bottle the beer while the beer is still fermenting (prior to reaching a terminal FG). That's tricky to do, the timeframe to bottle will vary based on fermentation conditions like temperature, yeast pitching rate, etc. And, it's a great way to cause bottle bombs. Very foolish on their part.

It's best practice to ferment your beer until the final gravity is stable. Then reintroduce a controlled amount of simple sugars to the beer (priming sugar), then bottle.

There's likely no fermentable sugars remaining in your beer and thus no way for the fermentation process to generate CO2 and carbonate your beer. I recommend opening all the bottles and either adding carbonation tabs to each bottle individually (best approach to avoid oxygenation). Or, carefully add all the beer into a bottling bucking, add priming sugar, and rebottle. This will work, but may introduce oxygen into your finished beer which can dull/stale your beer (oxidation). Although in some beer styles, mostly higher alcohol beers, a slight oxidation is acceptable as the oxidation adds complexity and sherry notes with aging. Either approach beats dumping the beer in my opinion as this issue is easily fixed.

Maybe just get some Cooper's carb drops & use one per 12oz bottle. those worked pretty good in the past for me.

shamfein said:

Hey All,

Im hoping i can get some good advice on this query

I brewed a Brewferm Christmas Beer about 7 weeks ago,

The OG was 1.085 and the final gravity was 1.027, i was worried about this when i was bottling as i thought it was a bit high, especially after 3 weeks in the fermenter.

I bottled as per the instructions with no priming sugar and it has been sitting for exactly a month now, I decided out of curiosity to try one last night to see how its progressing and i was very suprised to see that it was flat, no carbonation whatsoever. tasted very sweet still so it looks like it hasnt conditioned whatsoever.

The instructions do say to condition for at least 3 months but now im thinking that 2 more months will not change the beer at all.

Im half considering dumping it and starting a new batch with the bottles i used.

Has anyone any advice??

Cheers for the help

Click to expand...

Leave the bottles alone at 70 deg for at least the 3 months that the instructions called for, maybe go 4 to 5 or even 6 months.

After that put 1 bottle in the fridge and leave it alone for 3 days, the reason for the 3 days is to allow the co2 to go into solution, then pull it out and try it. if its low on carbonation, let the batch sit at 70 deg for another month, they will carb up with enough time.

The sweetness you tasted means there is lots of sugar left, to help carb up with, unless you mashed at a really high temp.

Cheers

I don't get why another 3-6 months would do anything for you. The FG seems to have been reached before bottling. Unless there was a slow eating bug or something in there, the yeast aren't farting CO2 anymore. You will just be storing flat beer for 6 months. Am I right?

Would adding fresh yeast to the bottle help? What was your estimated FG for that recipe? It would probably bring the FG down to a lower final gravity, but carbing the bottles at the same time. Maybe. Not sure how any of that data would be measured though. Might work. Might make bottle bombs. Might do nothing but make the beer taste flat and yeasty. Just spit ballin here.

MedicMang said:

I don't get why another 3-6 months would do anything for you. The FG seems to have been reached before bottling. Unless there was a slow eating bug or something in there, the yeast aren't farting CO2 anymore. You will just be storing flat beer for 6 months. Am I right?

Would adding fresh yeast to the bottle help? What was your estimated FG for that recipe? It would probably bring the FG down to a lower final gravity, but carbing the bottles at the same time. Maybe. Not sure how any of that data would be measured though. Might work. Might make bottle bombs. Might do nothing but make the beer taste flat and yeasty. Just spit ballin here.

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I agree that waiting 3-6 months is unlikely to do anything.

I believe the issue is a lack of fermentable sugars rather than a lack of yeast. After 7 weeks in the bottle, I think there are still yeast cells that could ferment the priming sugar and condition the beer.

Hello, the OP said a sweet beer, that means there is still a lot of fermentable sugars left in the beer, fermentable sugars + time = carbonation… Its kinda simple really

Cheers

Unless it's the long chain sugars that give flavor & color. Or old extract. but I'd still wonder abot the yeast aspect of it myself.

It's a Christmas Ale with a high OG, common since would dictate that this is a beer intended to be sweet, with many residual unfermentable sugars.


Seems you've reached final gravity, your beer is done, and there is no sugar left to carb up with. FINAL GRAVITY means FINAL...as in done fermenting all the fermentable sugars.


Just pop the tops, add a coopers tab to each bottle, let em sit for 2 weeks at room temp, chill one for a few days, pop the top and enjoy.

More time on this beer is just gonna be simply conditioning and you will still not get any carbonation, unless VERY slight.

WileECoyote said:

Hello, the OP said a sweet beer, that means there is still a lot of fermentable sugars left in the beer, fermentable sugars + time = carbonation… Its kinda simple really

Cheers

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casesensative said:

It's a Christmas Ale with a high OG, common since would dictate that this is a beer intended to be sweet, with many residual unfermentable sugars.


Seems you've reached final gravity, your beer is done, and there is no sugar left to carb up with. FINAL GRAVITY means FINAL...as in done fermenting all the fermentable sugars.


Just pop the tops, add a coopers tab to each bottle, let em sit for 2 weeks at room temp, chill one for a few days, pop the top and enjoy.

More time on this beer is just gonna be simply conditioning and you will still not get any carbonation, unless VERY slight.

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Do you really think that there is no such thing as a kit that is properly designed to self carb without using priming sugar ? Hmmmm?

That is very closed minded of you, their is more than 1 way to skin a cat, if he followed the instructions to the letter and the people that made up the instructions and recipe got it right and the yeast keep working, then doing what you are saying will make bottle bombs period… if the beer is aged for a long time.

It will not hurt anything what so ever letting these beers ride out the proper time frame that is called for, if they still haven't carbed up after that, he can always pop the tops and add carb drops, the yeast will still be there waiting for sugar to eat.

Even though it was in primary for 3 weeks that dose not mean that the yeast are done, there are lots of yeast strains that will keep slowly eating away at any sugars left in the beer, not just simple sugars…

I have had beers that hit FG and were flat as hell after 3 months in the bottle, still a bit sweet, and after 8 months they were fully carbed, maybe you could explain this to me since your so sure nothing can happen after FG is reached ?

Cheers

unionrdr said:

Unless it's the long chain sugars that give flavor & color. Or old extract. but I'd still wonder abot the yeast aspect of it myself.

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Hi unionrdr, what about the yeast aspect are you wondering about ?

Yeast are amazing little guys, they will sleep forever in a bottle it seems like, and if you introduce a bit of food they wake up and start eating again, they will even slowly chew away at the not so simple sugars, you can even harvest yeast from a year old store bought beer, i don't know if i would want to use it, lol but it can be done.

Cheers

WileECoyote said:

Hi unionrdr, what about the yeast aspect are you wondering about ?

Yeast are amazing little guys, they will sleep forever in a bottle it seems like, and if you introduce a bit of food they wake up and start eating again, they will even slowly chew away at the not so simple sugars, you can even harvest yeast from a year old store bought beer, i don't know if i would want to use it, lol but it can be done.

Cheers

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I was wondering if they're really done or just stalled out? Can't make up my mind on that one,as I've had them go both ways.

unionrdr said:

I was wondering if they're really done or just stalled out? Can't make up my mind on that one,as I've had them go both ways.

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Yes exactly, if they stalled or are working very slow then there not done yet.

If they are truly done then the OP will find that out too, in time.

Unfortunately the only way I can think of for us and the OP to find out if the yeast are truly done is to let it ride, only time will tell.

Cheers

WileECoyote said:

If they are truly done then the OP will find that out too, in time.

Unfortunately the only way I can think of for us and the OP to find out if the yeast are truly done is to let it ride, only time will tell.

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It depends on the OP's timeframe, but if I were him, I would try adding priming sugar/carb tabs to a handful of bottles as a test.

As a precaution, these bottles can be stored in a container of some kind just in case there is a bottle bomb situation.

I personally think carbonating without priming sugar is a bad idea for a new brewer. There are too many variables to accurately determine when is the correct moment to bottle. Also, I feel the beer reached it's FG. Three weeks in the primary, then several more weeks without any carbonation, seems like terminal gravity to me. It really should not take months and months for a beer to carbonate.

Unless maybe it's a big one. They seem to take longer. My 1st batch of whiskely took 1 day shy of ten weeks to be ready. Then two weeks fridge time for head & carbonation. Seems to me my burton ale took nearly that long as well.

Pie_Man said:

It depends on the OP's timeframe, but if I were him, I would try adding priming sugar/carb tabs to a handful of bottles as a test.

As a precaution, these bottles can be stored in a container of some kind just in case there is a bottle bomb situation.

I personally think carbonating without priming sugar is a bad idea for a new brewer. There are too many variables to accurately determine when is the correct moment to bottle. Also, I feel the beer reached it's FG. Three weeks in the primary, then several more weeks without any carbonation, seems like terminal gravity to me. It really should not take months and months for a beer to carbonate.

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I agree this is probably not a good recipe for a new brewer.

That being said, some beers take quite a long time to carb up, (big beers) I can see this recipe easily taking 3 to 6 months to carb up, doing a natural carb beer like this recipe dose takes a lot longer to carb up than carbing with priming sugars, right off the bat the yeast have slowed to a crawl, then you get into what sugars they are eating, how long it takes them to eat it, and how much sugars are left.

FG dose not always really mean FG, you can get a stable FG reading 3 days in a row and that dose not mean your beer is finished, try using 3724 saison yeast and fermenting it at 68 deg, I can almost guarantee your beer will stick (giving you a false FG reading) at 1.020, then warm it up to 85 deg and a week later your FG will be about 1.008, try this and let me know how it turns out for you.

Carbing without using priming sugar is not wrong what so ever, and can be very controlled, its just not common place and very unfamiliar to most of us brewers.

Cheers

WileECoyote said:

Do you really think that there is no such thing as a kit that is properly designed to self carb without using priming sugar ? Hmmmm?

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Unfortunately, that is exactly what I think. Once the beer is at FG, it shouldn't ferment any more.

Otherwise, everybody that has a bottle of beer over 3 months old would have bottle bombs.

Once a beer is done, and the fermentable sugars are gone, more don't magically appear on their own. That's why we add priming sugar.

If carbonation happens in the bottle without adding priming sugar, that means the beer wasn't finished when it was bottled. That would work, certainly, but it would be very unpredictable as the FG isn't always the same even for the same beer.

Yooper said:

Unfortunately, that is exactly what I think. Once the beer is at FG, it shouldn't ferment any more.

Otherwise, everybody that has a bottle of beer over 3 months old would have bottle bombs.

Once a beer is done, and the fermentable sugars are gone, more don't magically appear on their own. That's why we add priming sugar.

If carbonation happens in the bottle without adding priming sugar, that means the beer wasn't finished when it was bottled. That would work, certainly, but it would be very unpredictable as the FG isn't always the same even for the same beer.

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Sorry Yooper, but their are kits out there that self carb, without adding priming sugar.

I never said that more sugars would magically appear on their own.

Im saying that I don't think it really hit FG as in a true FG.

Cheers

Yeah a week at the same FG.... That beer is cooked and IMO will not carb unless you add tabs. It has no more fermentable sugar for the yeast to consume sooo no carbonation. No reason to dumb it though.

I used to do that with one of my wine recipes,but I wouldn't recommend trying it for beer. Just my 2c worth...(or is that a dollar's worth now?). I prefer to bulk prime beer after FG. Seems a lot safer/surer to me now that I've done it both ways.

Battles4Seattle said:

Yeah a week at the same FG.... That beer is cooked and IMO will not carb unless you add tabs. It has no more fermentable sugar for the yeast to consume sooo no carbonation. No reason to dumb it though.

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Ill say it again,

FG dose not always really mean FG, you can get a stable FG reading 3 days in a row even a week, and that dose not mean your beer is finished, try using 3724 saison yeast and fermenting it at 68 deg, I can almost guarantee your beer will stick (giving you a false FG reading) at 1.020, then warm it up to 85 deg and a week later your FG will be about 1.008, try this and let me know how it turns out for you.

cheers

Did he use saison yeast?!

WileECoyote said:

Sorry Yooper, but their are kits out there that self carb, without adding priming sugar.

I never said that more sugars would magically appear on their own.

Im saying that I don't think it really hit FG as in a true FG.

Cheers

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I'm sure the kit directions call for that.

The point I'm making is- how do you know when you're at FG? Three weeks? Three months? Three years?

What if you bottle at 1.025, and it's really at FG? What if it's not? That is my point. If you wait until the SG is unchanging, and at a reasonable attenuation, you shouldn't expect any carbonation in the bottle if you don't add priming sugar. Sure, the kit may have those directions, but that doesn't mean that it's good directions or good practice.

In other words, many people will have flat beer if they don't prime and the beer is at FG. Or, if they bottle before they are at FG, they may very well have bottle bombs.

Bad advice.

The beer may (or may not) carb up.

He did get about 68% attenuation which could have something to do with his fermentation temperature and like Yooper said it may or may not carb up.

Yooper said:

I'm sure the kit directions call for that.

The point I'm making is- how do you know when you're at FG? Three weeks? Three months? Three years?

What if you bottle at 1.025, and it's really at FG? What if it's not? That is my point. If you wait until the SG is unchanging, and at a reasonable attenuation, you shouldn't expect any carbonation in the bottle if you don't add priming sugar. Sure, the kit may have those directions, but that doesn't mean that it's good directions or good practice.

In other words, many people will have flat beer if they don't prime and the beer is at FG. Or, if they bottle before they are at FG, they may very well have bottle bombs.

Bad advice.

The beer may (or may not) carb up.

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I agree, I was just stating the same thing on the flip side of the coin so to speak, if it is at a true FG it will remain flat, if it wasn't it will carb with time.

I myself add priming sugar or keg co2 carb, I don't think I even want to try messing around with a self carbing recipe, and I'm not saying its a good idea ether, Im just saying it can and is being done in brewing.

I do know that if you know your OG and your target FG and mash at an exact temp, that you can calculate fairly accurately the right Specific Gravity to bottle at, to achieve a desired co2 level.

And I'm saying that a stable FG dose not 100% of the time mean the beer is at FG, we have all heard of a stuck fermentation, I have experienced this personally.

I also stated that if he followed the instructions to the letter and if the recipe was calculated right, his bottles would carb up in time.

I would love for the OP to let some of this batch ride for 6 months and report back with the results

Cheers

Battles4Seattle said:

Did he use saison yeast?!

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You completely missed what I was getting at, thats ok.

IDK what yeast he used ? as you can order just about any yeast strain with just about any kit, do you ?

Cheers

WileECoyote said:

Ill say it again,

FG dose not always really mean FG, you can get a stable FG reading 3 days in a row even a week, and that dose not mean your beer is finished, try using 3724 saison yeast and fermenting it at 68 deg, I can almost guarantee your beer will stick (giving you a false FG reading) at 1.020, then warm it up to 85 deg and a week later your FG will be about 1.008, try this and let me know how it turns out for you.

cheers

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Okay, but here's the thing - you're talking about taking yeast from 68 degrees to 85 degrees. Any yeast (I would think) would have some percentage that would wake up again somewhat with a temperature increase like that, provided there is something for it to consume.

Without changing some variable, like temperature, or the addition of fermentable sugars, I don't see how consistent gravity readings over a long period of time would suddenly result in the yeast waking up and doing more. Even at a slow pace?

I don't know. I'm not expert. Based on others' experiences as detailed... somehow there is extremely slow carbonation/conditioning that eventually results in carbing up a bottle over months' time. That seems weird if even at like, a week, no movement of the gravity occurs (or at least perceived movement - maybe that's the key).

Hey Guys,

I really appreciate all the different comments and the different ideas on my query.

I have decided to move the bottles to a warmer room in our house, as the room i keep my beer is quite cold, id guess it is about 15 or 16 degrees. I plan on leaving these for another few months and i will check a bottle in about another 2 months maybe longer,

From reading every ones comments I can surmise that since the last gravity reading i took was 1,027 there is still quite alot of unfermented sugars left, the taste also confirmed that its still very sweet, so I believe (and hope) that father time will help out the beer along with the warmer environment.

If for nothing else it will be a good experience to see how stronger beers (above 7%) mature/condition different to regular beers.

Ill continue to brew away and then ill come back to this beer to see how its progressing.

Whenever I do crack another one open ill be sure to update the thread to let you all know how im getting along.

I do appreciate all the comments, im really learning loads about this hobby/obsession the more i get into it.

You should really get your terminology right, because FINAL gravity means FINAL....as in done. If you reach a stable gravity, that then later becomes active again, it was just a stuck fermentation, and never reached it's FINAL gravity.

What I said was that I believe it IS at final gravity. Just because a beer is sweet doesn't mean it's not done. Lots of holiday ales and the like are meant to be sweet. Mashed at a high temp, low attenuating yeast, with the intention of leaving UNFERMENTABLE sugars in the beer.

It is more than likely at FINAL gravity, and the OP said they didn't want to wait forever to try the beer. So, just pop the tops, drop in a carb tab, check it every couple of days and when the carbonation is where you want it, just throw it in the fridge to put the yeast to sleep if you are worried about bottle bombs. Viola!

Better than waiting for months to find out your beer is still flat.

WileECoyote said:

I agree this is probably not a good recipe for a new brewer.

That being said, some beers take quite a long time to carb up, (big beers) I can see this recipe easily taking 3 to 6 months to carb up, doing a natural carb beer like this recipe dose takes a lot longer to carb up than carbing with priming sugars, right off the bat the yeast have slowed to a crawl, then you get into what sugars they are eating, how long it takes them to eat it, and how much sugars are left.

FG dose not always really mean FG, you can get a stable FG reading 3 days in a row and that dose not mean your beer is finished, try using 3724 saison yeast and fermenting it at 68 deg, I can almost guarantee your beer will stick (giving you a false FG reading) at 1.020, then warm it up to 85 deg and a week later your FG will be about 1.008, try this and let me know how it turns out for you.

Carbing without using priming sugar is not wrong what so ever, and can be very controlled, its just not common place and very unfamiliar to most of us brewers.

Cheers

Click to expand...

casesensative said:

You should really get your terminology right, because FINAL gravity means FINAL....as in done. If you reach a stable gravity, that then later becomes active again, it was just a stuck fermentation, and never reached it's FINAL gravity.

What I said was that I believe it IS at final gravity. Just because a beer is sweet doesn't mean it's not done. Lots of holiday ales and the like are meant to be sweet. Mashed at a high temp, low attenuating yeast, with the intention of leaving UNFERMENTABLE sugars in the beer.

It is more than likely at FINAL gravity, and the OP said they didn't want to wait forever to try the beer. So, just pop the tops, drop in a carb tab, check it every couple of days and when the carbonation is where you want it, just throw it in the fridge to put the yeast to sleep if you are worried about bottle bombs. Viola!

Better than waiting for months to find out your beer is still flat.

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Don't be a jackass.

I have my terminology Right according to what the OP said and is asking.

You need to understand we are replying to a new brewer who is asking for help and who obviously dose not understand the complete brewing process and all the terminology.

Maybe you should go back and read and try to understand what the OP is saying and asking.

Its a big beer, and most big beers need to age/condition for 4 to 6 months anyway, or longer, and most big beers take a long time to carb up anyway.

The OP called his gravity reading a FG, that dose not mean the beer was at FG…

So excuse me for trying to keep the terminology simple for the new brewer.

I will no longer reply to you casesensative;5665029 so stop the harassment.

shamfein said:

Hey Guys,

I really appreciate all the different comments and the different ideas on my query.

I have decided to move the bottles to a warmer room in our house, as the room i keep my beer is quite cold, id guess it is about 15 or 16 degrees. I plan on leaving these for another few months and i will check a bottle in about another 2 months maybe longer,

From reading every ones comments I can surmise that since the last gravity reading i took was 1,027 there is still quite alot of unfermented sugars left, the taste also confirmed that its still very sweet, so I believe (and hope) that father time will help out the beer along with the warmer environment.

If for nothing else it will be a good experience to see how stronger beers (above 7%) mature/condition different to regular beers.

Ill continue to brew away and then ill come back to this beer to see how its progressing.

Whenever I do crack another one open ill be sure to update the thread to let you all know how im getting along.

I do appreciate all the comments, im really learning loads about this hobby/obsession the more i get into it.

Click to expand...

I really hope that your beer comes out great, it will need a few months to age, mature and condition anyway.

Also your bottles need to be stored at 70 deg F

How long did the instructions say to primary the beer? or at what gravity to bottle?

if after a few more months it is still not carbed up you can always add to them to carb em up in about 3 weeks time.

Cheers

Thanks WileE

The instructions mention to primary the beer for at least ten days, or until the gravity reaches 1.020, however i obviously didnt reach 1.020 even after 3 weeks in the primary.

thanks for the tip on the storage temperature info, the main room i use is definitely below 70 degrees so i have move it to a room that will be at this temperature.

I have other beers ready to drink so i think ill plough away with these and forget about this one for a while. I do hope it turns out good.

Between the OG, SG, FG and the OP i think i need a drink before i go AWOL.

Thanks to everyone for commenting though, its a great learning curve on this new hobby. Someday ill master this thing... haha

shamfein said:

Thanks WileE

The instructions mention to primary the beer for at least ten days, or until the gravity reaches 1.020, however i obviously didnt reach 1.020 even after 3 weeks in the primary.

thanks for the tip on the storage temperature info, the main room i use is definitely below 70 degrees so i have move it to a room that will be at this temperature.

I have other beers ready to drink so i think ill plough away with these and forget about this one for a while. I do hope it turns out good.

Between the OG, SG, FG and the OP i think i need a drink before i go AWOL.

Thanks to everyone for commenting though, its a great learning curve on this new hobby. Someday ill master this thing... haha

Click to expand...

Your quite welcome, I can't wait to hear how your beer carbs up after some time, Please let me know I m very interested.

Some basic rules of thumb for carbing are, the colder you store it at, the longer it will take to carb up.

3 weeks at 70 deg is a minimum amount of time to carb a beer.

Chill a bottle for 3 days in the fridge before opening, to allow co2 time to get into solution.

All of these things below can affect the amount of time (increasing) it takes for a beer to carb up.

Bigger beers.
High adjunct beers.
High alcohol.
Darker beers.
Yeast used.

70 degrees F seems to be the most common temp for carbing.

Sounds like you should have a great beer in 3 to 6 months and plenty of sugars left to carb it.

I loved your, Between the comment, That cracked me up.

Please post how it come out.

Cheers