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aekdbbop

aekdbbop

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Ok, so I was away for 4 days, and came back to find that my fermenting fridge was off because my GFCI outlet tripped. I tried to plug it back in, and it would start up, then trip again.. If i plugged in just the fridge, it would be ok, but if i used the fridge with the temp controller, it would trip, unless i plugged in the temp controller first, then added the fridge..
but i dont know how long it will be until it trips again..

1. my beer was done fermenting, so it should be ok right? It could have been warm (high 80's ) for a couple of days..

2. can I do something about the outlet? what do you think is wrong with it? if anything else, can i remove the GFCI and replace with a normal outlet? or is there a GFCI with a higher amperage?

thanks for any help!
 
I'm no electrician, but good to see your have your priorities straight! At least the beer is ok!! HAHH!

What amperage breaker are you using?
 
It may not be the GFCI, I would look back at your service panel, and identify how many amps that circuit is and how many amps are you pulling off of that circuit? Is the GFCI tripping or is the circuit?

I'm assuming that if you are plugging into a GFCI, that you are near a water source or in a garage. Is there water anywhere on the floor? You could have a short somewhere in the fridge or in your temp control too. It could also be a bad GFCI.

I'm no electrician, but I do know a bit about electrical systems. It sounds to me as though you may want to bring in an electrician just to be safe. Both Circuit breakers and GFCI's are designed to trip for safety purposes, it could be worth it to bring in a qualified technician.
 
I had a GFCI go bad. It worked fine for 2-3 years with my electric razor plugged in, then one day it just started tripping. I replaced it 6 months ago and plugged the same razor in and it's been fine since. You can buy GFCI's rated for different apms, but I wouldn't get a gfci rated for a gigher amperage that the breaker it is on (ie don't put a 20amp GFCI on a 15 amp breaker circuit)
 
Any chance there is moisture in the temp controller? If it trips every time you plug in the temp controller, your problem could be right there.
 
another note.. i have two outlets in the garage, and i tried plugging it into the other outlet (also GFCI i believe) and it was tripping the both. does that help?
 
aekdbbop said:
another note.. i have two outlets in the garage, and i tried plugging it into the other outlet (also GFCI i believe) and it was tripping the both. does that help?
Click to expand...

If those 2 outlets are on seperate circuits (50/50 chance) then it's something with your fridge or temp controller. Most likely those 2 outlets are on the same circuit. But it does sound like something with the temp controler, or the fridge.

Did you buy the temp controler or DIY it?
 
aekdbbop said:
another note.. i have two outlets in the garage, and i tried plugging it into the other outlet (also GFCI i believe) and it was tripping the both. does that help?
Click to expand...


That means that they are on the same circuit. I would start with replacing the GFCI in question and take it from there.
 
A few comments (not an electrician):

A GFCI works by tripping power when the power flowing into and out of the panel by the hot and neutral legs is not the same. So the GFCI trips and saves your life when power is flowing into you rather than back into the panel. What would trip the receptacle is if power is escaping somewhere, which could be caused by a short in the controller, fridge or somewhere else. If you have tried plugging it into a properly grounded (properly installed 3-prong plug) non-GFCI receptacle, a short would have tripped the breaker.

Also, like mentioned before, it could be a bad GFCI. When you say that you believe the other outlet was a GFCI, was it in fact a GFCI (with the buttons) or did it have a GFCI sticker? If it had a sticker it was probably daisy-chained into the other GFCI (this is perfectly fine) but it also tripping does not rule out the chance of a bad GFCI. Be careful if you choose to replace the GFCI because wiring a GFCI with a downstream outlet that is to also have protection is tricky. It is possible for a layman to do, just follow the instructions.

Don't worry about a higher amperage GFCI, 15A should be plenty to run a standard refrigerator. I also doubt that it is your breaker, or the size of the breaker that is causing problems.

Finally I don't want you to hurt yourself or create a dangerous situation, but it is standard practice (code-worthy) to wire a non-GFCI receptacle for fridges (because you don't want it to trip and spoil your food and because it is not necessary). Just be careful to put your temp controller well away from any potential water, make sure the connections into the controller are nice and clean and avoid spraying the whole thing with the hose.

Again, not an electrician, but I've done a bunch of wiring and just my 2c.
 
JAKlaassen said:
If you have tried plugging it into a properly grounded (properly installed 3-prong plug) non-GFCI receptacle, a short would have tripped the breaker.
Click to expand...

This is not necessarily true since it will take 15A (approx. 75A to trip instantaneously) to trip a 15A breaker and it only takes 5mA of imbalance to trip a GFCI and it only takes 50mA to kill you....
 
Very true about the amount of power required to trip the breaker. It is not an electrocution safety device as much as a fire, etc. safety device.

I may be getting out of my element here, but if the appliance is properly grounded (perhaps a big if), shouldn't a short go straight to ground and try to run as much power as it possibly can through the circuit almost certainly tripping the breaker? I suppose there is the chance of a frayed wire barely touching the frame of the fridge or an arc fault or something like that which would electrify the metal but not trip the breaker. Perhaps this scenario is more likely than I imagine. Could this scenario be tested by putting a multimeter between various metal parts on the fridge and an isolated ground?
 
JAKlaassen said:
A few comments (not an electrician):

A GFCI works by tripping power when the power flowing into and out of the panel by the hot and neutral legs is not the same. So the GFCI trips and saves your life when power is flowing into you rather than back into the panel. What would trip the receptacle is if power is escaping somewhere, which could be caused by a short in the controller, fridge or somewhere else. If you have tried plugging it into a properly grounded (properly installed 3-prong plug) non-GFCI receptacle, a short would have tripped the breaker.

Also, like mentioned before, it could be a bad GFCI. When you say that you believe the other outlet was a GFCI, was it in fact a GFCI (with the buttons) or did it have a GFCI sticker? If it had a sticker it was probably daisy-chained into the other GFCI (this is perfectly fine) but it also tripping does not rule out the chance of a bad GFCI. Be careful if you choose to replace the GFCI because wiring a GFCI with a downstream outlet that is to also have protection is tricky. It is possible for a layman to do, just follow the instructions.

Don't worry about a higher amperage GFCI, 15A should be plenty to run a standard refrigerator. I also doubt that it is your breaker, or the size of the breaker that is causing problems.

Finally I don't want you to hurt yourself or create a dangerous situation, but it is standard practice (code-worthy) to wire a non-GFCI receptacle for fridges (because you don't want it to trip and spoil your food and because it is not necessary). Just be careful to put your temp controller well away from any potential water, make sure the connections into the controller are nice and clean and avoid spraying the whole thing with the hose.

Again, not an electrician, but I've done a bunch of wiring and just my 2c.
Click to expand...

Ok,

1. it has buttons.. and a red light that comes on when it is tripped.
2.Can I wire a normal outlet in the spot of that GFCI? it is well away from water..
3. the other plug that i tried, i assumed it was GFCI because it kept tripping the two sockets, but there is a 6 way splitter cover over the outlet.. so I am not 100 percent sure.

what would you do in my case?
 
JAKlaassen said:
Very true about the amount of power required to trip the breaker. It is not an electrocution safety device as much as a fire, etc. safety device.

I may be getting out of my element here, but if the appliance is properly grounded (perhaps a big if), shouldn't a short go straight to ground and try to run as much power as it possibly can through the circuit almost certainly tripping the breaker? I suppose there is the chance of a frayed wire barely touching the frame of the fridge or an arc fault or something like that which would electrify the metal but not trip the breaker. Perhaps this scenario is more likely than I imagine. Could this scenario be tested by putting a multimeter between various metal parts on the fridge and an isolated ground?
Click to expand...

Without seeing his setup first hand I have no idea were he could be getting voltage leakage from if in fact he is. It maybe possible to use a DMM and check from the line side of the temp controller to ground with the unit unplugged and see if there is any continuity. If the problem is intermittent it may be difficult to track down though.
 
aekdbbop said:
2.Can I wire a normal outlet in the spot of that GFCI? it is well away from water..
Click to expand...

Can you? Yes. Should you? Probably not. It's in that location for a reason---code for one, as wihophead stated. A higher current GFCI won't do anything, the circuit is still 15A via the breaker. Don't change the breaker either, 14g wire doesn't like to carry 20A so unless the whole circuit's wired with at least 12g wire, it could mean a really bad day. :eek:

what would you do in my case?
Click to expand...
Check the other appliances and outlets on the GFCI circuit. It may be linked into a GFCI circuit in your basement, kitchen, etc. Checking in with an electrician may also be a good idea---maybe you can barter some homebrew or at least use some to sweeten the deal. ;)

Might look into getting a power failure alarm too. May even be able to find one that you can plug "through". It'll at least give you a heads-up when the circuit trips.

Hope that helps. :mug:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Not that this will help you today, but it is a really good "gadget" to have around the house. Among other things, you can see how many amps a device or devices pull by plugging them in to the receptacle on the device.

As a few have mentioned, don't be tempted to put a 20a receptacle on a 15a circuit....melting wires in your house can lead to a bad day when you burn your house down.

If it is in your garage (I think you said that), like someone mentioned earlier, maybe just bribe a buddy or local electrician and run a whole new circuit so that you know it is good. Shouldn't be too much.
 
aekdbbop said:
2. if anything else, can i remove the GFCI and replace with a normal outlet?
Click to expand...



wihophead said:
Code requires all 15A and 20A receptacles in a garage to be GFCI protected.
Click to expand...


True, but there are exceptions. The receptacle for the garage door opener need not be GFCI protected, and there is an exception for refrigerators or other large appliances not easily moved.The key here is an appliance that is not easily moved, like a large fridge. Also, you may not have more receptacles than appliances. In other words, if you have one appliance, you must use a single receptacle, not a duplex.

So, you can legally remove the GFCI protection from that receptacle, if you do it so that nothing else can be plugged in there.
 
Bernie Brewer said:
So, you can legally remove the GFCI protection from that receptacle, if you do it so that nothing else can be plugged in there.
Click to expand...

AND make sure there is nothing on the "LOAD" terminals of the GFCI when you take it out - or else you will have to find out where those leads go to and put a GFCI there (IE downstream "daughter" outlets)
 
Just reading through here and didn't see this, but it is possible that the fridge itself could be going, when a compressor motor cycles more often (as it could be stressed) and starts to malfuction. When that happens the motor will cause a greater amperage load For a refrigerator, you should have a 20amp breaker , but if it's a 15 amp , and the motor is straining it is possible to trip the breaker often. best to call a electrician or plug another refridgerator into that circuit and see if it trips, an easier way to check to to use an amprobe to determine the amp load on the compressor both starting and running.

good luck
 
Bernie Brewer said:
True, but there are exceptions. The receptacle for the garage door opener need not be GFCI protected, and there is an exception for refrigerators or other large appliances not easily moved.The key here is an appliance that is not easily moved, like a large fridge. Also, you may not have more receptacles than appliances. In other words, if you have one appliance, you must use a single receptacle, not a duplex.

So, you can legally remove the GFCI protection from that receptacle, if you do it so that nothing else can be plugged in there.
Click to expand...

This does not hold true for the new code cycle
 
UPDATE:
I think I found somthing out.. i plugged in my keggerator into the same outlet using the temp controller, and it didnt trip..

would this tell me that the fridge compressor is going out like mrbowenz said? the fridge is almost as old as I am... (20 years or so.)

its just weird that it would trip with the controller, and wouldnt without.. maybe the amps of the controller put it over the edge??
 
I would look at replacing the fridge with an Estar rating before taking out your GPF's, re-wiring or messing with your circuit breakers. Come on twenty years old may look retro, but it is costing you pennies a day. OK, not a problem but if it was a lager beer after 4 days. As Peter Griffin (you know-family guy) says - "come on".

And hopefully that solves the problem.
 
aekdbbop said:
UPDATE:
I think I found somthing out.. i plugged in my keggerator into the same outlet using the temp controller, and it didnt trip..

would this tell me that the fridge compressor is going out like mrbowenz said? the fridge is almost as old as I am... (20 years or so.)

its just weird that it would trip with the controller, and wouldnt without.. maybe the amps of the controller put it over the edge??
Click to expand...

The best way to tell if it's your compressor is to use an amprobe, it measures current draw / amp draw of the mains of the motor. Typically when the compressor starts it amps spike up ( that's the job of the start capacitor), the draw of amps should be within 10% of the stated amp rating ( listed on the information plate, somewhere on the unit), the compressor also has a relay which could also be what's giving your frig problems ( it may very well be stuck open or closed ) , A word of caution, capacitors contain high voltage even when not plugged in , be very careful , they can kill you, and must be discharged before replacing . Based on what you have described so far, it's probably a relay, or bad compressor motor. I would guess your house wiring is fine, even if it's slightly underrated to handle the load.
 
From time to time you hit on a combination of appliances that trip out GFCI's. I would guess the fridge is older and by itself it sounds like there is no problems. Is that correct? But when you plug in the Temp controller you end up with trouble. Is this also correct? Try plugging in another appliance to the temp controller. It does not matter what it is as long as it has a motor. Then turn the controller up to operate the the appliance. Does it trip the GFCI? I think that there are two things going on here. One is GFCI's are touchy to motor loads ( I.E. the compressor in the fridge). But only under certain conditions. Like if the cycle time on the temp controller is not set long enough. This causes in-rush current too frequently, for the GFCI. The GFCI compares current in and current out. The brief milli second that it takes for the compressors windings to load is all it takes. If this condition is ify, or on the edge of the GFCI's tolerances, then the temp controller will compound it. Second, would be that the temp controller is bad or has a week connection some where. Keep in mind that with out actually coming over to your house to trouble shoot it, this is all speculation. S.
 
My old 1947 Philco frig in the patio under a overhang cover is outdoors where temps in the summer can reach 103 F. It only cycles once every 2 hours for 45 seconds vs the 4 year old MayTag side by side in the house that runs 20-26 minutes at a time. Smaller compressor energy saving my azz that thing runs all the time and has been checked out and told operates normal.
 
It sounds like you have leakage somewhere...this is the very reason that the 2008 code requires ALL 15A and 20A receptacles to be GFCI protected in a garage and unfinished basement and yes this includes garage door openers, sump pumps and your refrigerator/freezer circuits.

Basically the 2008 code states that ALL 15A and 20A receptacles must be either GFCI or AFCI protected depending on location of coarse....hopefully COMM16 here in Wisconsin will omit AFCI requirements for at least this code cycle....:)
 
wihophead said:
It sounds like you have leakage somewhere...this is the very reason that the 2008 code requires ALL 15A and 20A receptacles to be GFCI protected in a garage and unfinished basement and yes this includes garage door openers, sump pumps and your refrigerator/freezer circuits.

Basically the 2008 code states that ALL 15A and 20A receptacles must be either GFCI or AFCI protected depending on location of coarse....hopefully COMM16 here in Wisconsin will omit AFCI requirements for at least this code cycle....:)
Click to expand...

Righty you are. Here in Minnesota they have delayed parts of the new code until August. The AFCI requirement is huge controversy, mostly though because they want to make it retroactive ten years. This will cost the average service upgrade 10 to 15 k because of rewiring multi branch circuit wiring allowed under the past codes. Don't get me wrong the wiring won't cost that much, but when you have to start tearing up walls to rewire... YOU GET THE PICTURE.
Another manufacture driven safety requirement. If parents took responsibility for their children and paid them some attention, we would not need AFCI's in the first place. Go figure.
;)
 
aekdbbop said:
Ok, so I was away for 4 days, and came back to find that my fermenting fridge was off because my GFCI outlet tripped. I tried to plug it back in, and it would start up, then trip again.. If i plugged in just the fridge, it would be ok, but if i used the fridge with the temp controller, it would trip, unless i plugged in the temp controller first, then added the fridge..
but i dont know how long it will be until it trips again..

1. my beer was done fermenting, so it should be ok right? It could have been warm (high 80's ) for a couple of days..

2. can I do something about the outlet? what do you think is wrong with it? if anything else, can i remove the GFCI and replace with a normal outlet? or is there a GFCI with a higher amperage?

thanks for any help!
Click to expand...

I am a former electrician of 11 years and hopefully I can provide some answers for you.

My first thought on tripping the GFCI is that it's the controller that's doing it. I would guess that there is a short in the wiring somewhere, perhaps a miswiring or a direct short or frayed wires.

Second, GFCI's are not designed for motor loads. If you have a dedicated motor load, then you don't need a GFCI.

Third, the amperage on the GFCI is paired to the amperage on the circuit. Changing to a higher amperage GFCI will not help at all. Changing to a higher amperage circuit breaker could potentially cause a fire due to overheating of the electrical wiring.

Fourth, this goes back to my second thought, is that in a kitchen, the fridge outlet is always wired so that it bypasses the GFCI controlled outlets in the kitchen. It may be on the same circuit as some of the other kitchen outlets, but it shouldn't be on a GFCI because of the potential of the GFCI tripping and spoiling food. Depending upon how the circuit is wired, I would take the GFCI off the fridge outlet and replace with a standard outlet and then put the GFCI on the next downstream outlet.

I hope this is helpful.

Cheers
 
MadViking said:
Second, GFCI's are not designed for motor loads. If you have a dedicated motor load, then you don't need a GFCI.
Click to expand...

When on a job site OSHA requires all cords used for portable electric tools to be GFCI protected and these tools eg: drills, saws etc.. contain electric motors.
Also mixers and blenders and such contain motors and they are plugged into GFCI protected kitchen recepticles. A motor in proper working condition will not trip a modern properly working GFCI.

It would also be a good idea to review the 2008 code before giving any advice since the advice you gave would be a code violation......
 

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