Efficiency question

Was running some recipes through an efficiency calculator to see what I stand at and noticed something I thought was odd. Basically all the recipes I ran were hitting anywhere between 70-78% until I got to the Hefe which rated right about 41%

Strike temp is 172
Mash temps average 153-154
Mash for 45mins
Boil for 60

These are large batches of 3bbls per batch but where am I not seeing a leakdown?

54% Wheat
36% Pale
10% Dextrin

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Wheat can be problematic when mashing, you might need rice hulls or a higher mash out temp to get better efficiency. Also a longer Mash time would help too.

pm5k00 said:

Wheat can be problematic when mashing, you might need rice hulls or a higher mash out temp to get better efficiency. Also a longer Mash time would help too.

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I didn't add in the hulls but yes there are 5 lbs of hulls in the mash as well.

I have done 60min mashes before and it does raise it slightly (from 1.050 up to 1.052) but not enough to account for this huge variable, just has me stumped.

You think batch sparging would increase this by much?

So this a batch that you have actually brewed and were you using torrified wheat or malted wheat?

Edit: +1 on the mash time. Did you sparge at all when you brewed this?

a6ladd said:

So this a batch that you have actually brewed and were you using torrified wheat or malted wheat?

Edit: +1 on the mash time. Did you sparge at all when you brewed this?

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Malted wheat
I do sparge appprox 2bbls over ~60 mins but have also played with longer sparge times up to 2hrs with marginal results.

If you were using a half malter/half torrified wheat combo that is part of your problem, torrified has no diastatic power and malted wheat has relatively low distatic power thus making for a pretty unfermentable wort/need for an extended mash.

Hmm... Ill do some more reading haha.

a6ladd said:

If you were using a half malter/half torrified wheat combo that is part of your problem, torrified has no diastatic power and malted wheat has relatively low distatic power thus making for a pretty unfermentable wort/need for an extended mash.

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I see

This helps immensley actually so thanks for the input, off to do some reading.

What do you use to stir you mash? Something automated might be a must. I only brew on a 10 gallon system so stiring by hand works just fine for me. Check out this write up on Beersmith. It might help a little bit with understanding disatatic power and formulating your grain bill.

Cheers!

a6ladd said:

What do you use to stir you mash? Something automated might be a must. I only brew on a 10 gallon system so stiring by hand works just fine for me. Check out this write up on Beersmith. It might help a little bit with understanding disatatic power and formulating your grain bill.

Cheers!

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I stir by hand (paddle) which hasn't been an issue as of yet, I am getting good mix and no dry spots in any of my mashes so far and most are heavier grain billls weight wise than this one.

Thanks for the link, will try to read it today

No problem, seems odd that you're only having a problem with the hefe.

Best of luck!

a6ladd said:

No problem, seems odd that you're only having a problem with the hefe.

Best of luck!

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Thats why it threw me. I expect a variance but this is too big to be easily explained. They have been brewing it at this efficiency for years so I'm only worried about it in order to improve on the recipe and tighten up the grain bill a bit.

Well this isnt necessarily the best answer but you could always try adding amylase enzyme to assist in conversion.

a6ladd said:

Well this isnt necessarily the best answer but you could always try adding amylase enzyme to assist in conversion.

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After reading that article you linked I may bump the wheat bill a hair, extend the mash time and also lengthen the sparge time and see where that gets me. If that doesn't get me closer I will do all this and try batch sparging instead of fly sparging...but on this scale it's going to be a bit of a hassle, of course if it creates a better beer it is worth it in the end I suppose.

I am surprised no one touched on the crush of the grain. Wheat malt is smaller than standard 2 row. I noticed when doing a few wheat recipes that I was getting less than stellar efficiency and found it was due to the crush. Tighten up your crush a bit to compensate or at the very least double crush the wheat malt.

Toga said:

I am surprised no one touched on the crush of the grain. Wheat malt is smaller than standard 2 row. I noticed when doing a few wheat recipes that I was getting less than stellar efficiency and found it was due to the crush. Tighten up your crush a bit to compensate or at the very least double crush the wheat malt.

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??

I don't custom mill, we use it in 55lb bags so not sure how that applies.

edit: Sorry wasn't meant to come off as challlenging to your post just not sure it is something I can do at this scale, my boss is a tricky one to work with on any change of procedure or extra expense

Toga said:

I am surprised no one touched on the crush of the grain. Wheat malt is smaller than standard 2 row. I noticed when doing a few wheat recipes that I was getting less than stellar efficiency and found it was due to the crush. Tighten up your crush a bit to compensate or at the very least double crush the wheat malt.

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I didnt even think of that but its entierly possible. Ive never noticed too much of a difference though and I crush all my own grain at the exact same setting each time.

niteshade are you receiving the grains already crushed then?

Toga said:

niteshade are you receiving the grains already crushed then?

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Yes, I can take a shot of the grain if that helps, but it's Gambrinus Malted Wheat if that gives a good idea.

Out of curiosity would upping the rice hulls allow more flow thus improving efficiency?
Seems if it is a compaction issue this may help some, or am I off base here in this thinking?

The rice hulls might help slightly but I cant comment as to what extent. The last wheat beer I brewed was 50% wheat 50% barley and I used 0 rice hulls, didnt have a problem with efficiency or a stuck sparge but I'd consider myself pretty lucky.

As for pre-crushed grain, if you are getting it directly from Gambrinus, pre-crushed, I'd really doubt that this is the issue. It wouldnt make sense for them to be distributing pre-crushed grain that is crushed improperly, IMHO.

I agree if it is coming from the malt house crushed you should be fine.

I would give the rice hull thing a shot. Not sure if it will help but wheat malt can get pretty pasty and better flow would not hurt anything.