Wort Chiller Question

So I had previously been pouring my 2 gallons of hot wort into my primary with 3 gallons of cold water (through a strainer) and then sitting the bucket into an ice bath to cool down. I had a friend taste my beer, and he mentioned that the pouring the hot wort into the cold water was creating some oxidation issues and resulting in a wet cardboard finish flavor.

I made an immersion wort chiller and have been cooling down my hot wort to about 78* and then pouring it into the cold water (which is usually about 70*) which puts me at the proper pitching temperature. -- Is my process incorrect? Should I be pouring my hot wort into the primary with the cold water and cooling it down in there?

Thoughts? How do others use their immersion wort chillers?

I chill my wort with an immersion chiller after flameout but before adding the top off water. I chill itto about 80 and the add a couple of gallons of refrigerated water as top off. I am usually in the low seventies then.
The chilling for 3 gallons atkes about 10-15 minutes.
Hope this helps.

tallpaul07 said:

I made an immersion wort chiller and have been cooling down my hot wort to about 78* and then pouring it into the cold water (which is usually about 70*) which puts me at the proper pitching temperature. -- Is my process incorrect? Should I be pouring my hot wort into the primary with the cold water and cooling it down in there?

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This is what I would do.

Tell us more about your "cold water." Is it tap water, boiled water, bottled water?

The cold water that I'm using is tap water. Should I switch this up?

If you get a kettle big enough for full boils of 6 gallons, you'll never go back. That's when the immersion chiller comes in real handy. It'll chill it to pitching temp in about 30 minutes.

I suggest doing full boils if you can get ahold of a 7 gallon or larger brew kettle.

castlefreak said:

If you get a kettle big enough for full boils of 6 gallons, you'll never go back. That's when the immersion chiller comes in real handy. It'll chill it to pitching temp in about 30 minutes.

I suggest doing full boils if you can get ahold of a 7 gallon or larger brew kettle.

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Can you link me to one that will work on the stove in my apartment?

tallpaul07 said:

The cold water that I'm using is tap water. Should I switch this up?

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If using tap water I'd suggest boiling it and cooling it before using it. It may be fine but you don't know unless you have it tested for impurities. At least boiling it may help. You may want to try using bottled water instead of tap water.

I wouldn't pour hot wort directly into a bucket or carboy. The heat could melt the plastic (and add off flavors to your beer) and/or crack a glass carboy. I'd definitely cool it down before transferring from the kettle.

tallpaul07 said:

...he mentioned that the pouring the hot wort into the cold water was creating some oxidation issues and resulting in a wet cardboard finish flavor...

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Sounds like rubbish to me. There may be oxidation issues but I rather suspect it did not come from that part of your brewing process!

FWIW and YMMV of course!

Steve da sleeve

@Smears - if I'm doing partial mash brews, you suggest full boils? I have a 7.5 gallon pot so could totally do it. What are the benefits of full boil in your opinion?

stevedasleeve said:

Sounds like rubbish to me. There may be oxidation issues but I rather suspect it did not come from that part of your brewing process!

FWIW and YMMV of course!

Steve da sleeve

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I agree with this. Sounds to me like another one of these things where "OK, the beer's off, so I'll pick on the first thing you do that's not what I do, and that must be the reason."

No.

Try bass pro if theres one near you they sell a 7.5 gallon for frying fish but works all the same.

I am in the same boat for process... I am limited to an apartment with less than ideal appliances. My kettle is plenty large enough, but my stove wont boil it (at least not in any decent length of time). I boil 2-3 gallons, then i cool the wort in an ice bath for 15 minutes which typically gets it down to ~100F, maybe a little less. Then i mix that in with Ozarka spring water in sealed gallon jugs that have been fridge cooled. Obviously the wort has to go in first so i can measure out the correct amount of water for 5 gallons. I mix and aerate thoroughly at this stage to ensure a uniform mixture <----- This makes me wonder how you could have exposed it to too much oxygen here. From what i understand, air is OK here, but ONLY here. I determine a uniform mixture by taking several temp readings at different locations/depths and i take 2 OG samples if i am feeling ambitious.

My wort/water mixture comes out to 70-75F in a total of less than 20 min.

rico567 said:

I agree with this. Sounds to me like another one of these things where "OK, the beer's off, so I'll pick on the first thing you do that's not what I do, and that must be the reason."

No.

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Maybe I completely misunderstood what people are griping about when they use the term "hot side aeration"?

It shouldn't be called hot side aeration. It should be pre-yeast and post yeast aeration in my opinion. When you boil your wort, you boil the oxygen out of it. You must then get more oxygen in the wort by shaking the fermentor, using a fish pump, canned oxygen or some other method. Ideal for yeast is 10 parts per million. Canned o2 will give you 10 ppm in 30 seconds to one minute. A fish pump will give 8 ppm max in a couple hours. Shaking the fermentor or pouring the wort back and forth between two buckets will give 2-3 ppm. I would have a very hard time believing it is oxidation from pouring hot wort into cold water. I would be more apt to blame old extract, a mild infection or aeration during bottling as the cause for the off flavor.

VB

tallpaul07 said:

@Smears - if I'm doing partial mash brews, you suggest full boils? I have a 7.5 gallon pot so could totally do it. What are the benefits of full boil in your opinion?

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I'm not sure really. I was asking cause someone said "if you can get a 7 gallon pot you should do a full boil". I'm wondering how the hell I'd boil 7 gallons on my apartment stove. I can understand w/ a turkey fryer and a propane tank, but I don't see how I could do that inside my place. I'm also wondering if my stove will even boil that much water. I have to wait a while just to get 3 or 4 gallons to boil now.

VegasBrew said:

It shouldn't be called hot side aeration. It should be pre-yeast and post yeast aeration in my opinion. When you boil your wort, you boil the oxygen out of it. You must then get more oxygen in the wort by shaking the fermentor, using a fish pump, canned oxygen or some other method.

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My understanding was oxygenation was not advisable until the wort had cooled to below 90F. Would you say "pre-yeast" aeration corresponds to a relatively safe temperature to pitch to? Or would you say that aeration at higher temperatures presents no more deleterious effects than waiting for a lower temperature?

castlefreak said:

If you get a kettle big enough for full boils of 6 gallons, you'll never go back. That's when the immersion chiller comes in real handy. It'll chill it to pitching temp in about 30 minutes.

I suggest doing full boils if you can get ahold of a 7 gallon or larger brew kettle.

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I agree but man does it take a while for the water to boil (stovetop) still better although I have only done it once due to the fact I don't have a wort chiller.

I'm going to make one and go back to full boils!:rockin:

TheSeether said:

My understanding was oxygenation was not advisable until the wort had cooled to below 90F. Would you say "pre-yeast" aeration corresponds to a relatively safe temperature to pitch to? Or would you say that aeration at higher temperatures presents no more deleterious effects than waiting for a lower temperature?

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While it is true that you don`t want to disturb a hot wort at all before cooling, that just is not possible, you will always get SOME oxidation. I don`t think you will get much more oxidation in the wort pouring it hot into cold than you would with a counter flow chiller or a whirlpool chiller. In a perfect world, cool the wort before you poor it in, I didn`t mean to say that was proper practice to pour it in hot if that is how it sounded. It is possible for the wort to oxidize to some extent by pouring it, stirring it, splashing it and/or pumping it but to cause a noticeable flavor in the beer I really feel it needs to be a post fermentation aeration. As to intentional aeration you are correct, the wort must be at pitch temp before aeration or you will get massive oxidation.

VB

smears said:

I'm not sure really. I was asking cause someone said "if you can get a 7 gallon pot you should do a full boil". I'm wondering how the hell I'd boil 7 gallons on my apartment stove. I can understand w/ a turkey fryer and a propane tank, but I don't see how I could do that inside my place. I'm also wondering if my stove will even boil that much water. I have to wait a while just to get 3 or 4 gallons to boil now.

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I boil 8 gallons on my stovetop, takes about 1/2 hour:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/brew-pots-178824/#post2071164

Nowadays I take the burners out, place 3-4 feet of foil in the little wells in both directions, replace the burners punching a hole in the foil, put the pot on the burners, wrap the extra length of foil up around the pot, then put a couple of layers of foil around the pot. It makes a huuuge difference, without the foil I don't think I could boil 8 gallons. If your stove can't do 5-7 gallons you can boil less and add water when you're done without any problems.

It helps to use heavy duty foil too

smears said:

Can you link me to one that will work on the stove in my apartment?

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http://www.bacchus-barleycorn.com/catalog/stainless-boiling-p-4035.html

This is the site for my LHBS, and I think I bought this one but it was on sale for $70 at the time. Mine may have been 7 gallons, though, and this one is 7.5. I live in a condo with a small kitchen that has the microwave over the stove. This kettle just barely sneaks in below the microwave and I have to pull it out a bit to get the immersion chiller in there. It does take a bit to get the water boiling, but we have pretty good gas burners that get the job done.

I'll still be taking it outside with a propane burner very soon.

stevedasleeve said:

Sounds like rubbish to me. There may be oxidation issues but I rather suspect it did not come from that part of your brewing process!

FWIW and YMMV of course!

Steve da sleeve

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+1 its really hard to oxidize beer prior to pitching yeast