n00b compression fitting question

So I've got my converted keg, I've got a thermometer and a ball valve so I'm 95% ready to put this thing to use. I just need to get the drain tube part sorted out.

it's my understanding that I need a 1/2" compression fitting and a few inches of copper pipe to make this happen.

I'm clueless on what a comprssion fitting it or how they work. Can I just go to Lowes or Home Depot for the compression fitting? what section are they usually in? I don't think that if I told the sales assocaite "I need a compression fitting for the drain tube on my keggle I'd get much of a response.

Also, what size copper pipe to I need? 1/2" like on the compression fitting?

any help appreciated

Matt

PS: The guys I brew with have drain tubes that point down into the lowest part of the keg, but I recall seeing pictures of drain tubes that are bent along the inside of the keggle. Is drain tube the correct term to search for in trying to find pictures of these things?

What fittings do you have welded on the keg?

I have a 1/2" coupler with male threads on both ends welded in for the ball valve/drain tube part and a 1/2" female thread coupler for the thermometer.

Matt and Katie:

Like WortMonger said, we need to know what fittings you used to pass through the wall of the keg. If you used a weldless fitting like the ones you can get from Austin Homebrew Supply, MoreBeer, or Northern Brewer, then I recommend 1/2 copper pipe for a dip tube. You'll need a 1/2" compression to 1/2 MPT fitting, the copper pipe, and an elbow. You'll need to figure a way to get the dip tube to wherever you want it in your keggle.

If you used a welded bulkhead, it will depend on what fitting was welded to the inside of the keg. There's good information in the relevant wiki section.in the relevant wiki section

[After reading Matt and Katie's post above]

OK, if you have 1/2 MPT on the bulkhead, then you'll probably want a 1/2 FPT to 1/2 compression fitting like the one below.
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The best thing to do is take all your parts to the hardware store to select exactly what you need. Note that the compression rings for compression fittings can be really hard to start on the pipe. I usually use emery paper to put a small lead-in chamfer on the pipe before installing the cap and fitting.

Well, then you need a 1/2" female threaded copper fitting soldered to 1/2" copper tubing and 90* elbow. It screws on and off for cleaning and you can cutt it to fit exactly on the bottom of the kettle for picking up everything. You can then attach the ball valve to the outside part of the coupler and for your thermometer just attach from the outside in.

Also, you'll need to add a barb to the outside of the ball valve and attach enough tubing to it to take the bottom of the tubing below the bottom of the kettle when draining. Otherwise, you won't get a siphon, and the keggle will only drain to the level of the ball valve.

Orfy has a good picture of his dip tube in this post. Mine's similar, but closer to the edge of my kettle.

jds said:

Also, you'll need to add a barb to the outside of the ball valve and attach enough tubing to it to take the bottom of the tubing below the bottom of the kettle when draining. Otherwise, you won't get a siphon, and the keggle will only drain to the level of the ball valve.

Orfy has a good picture of his dip tube in this post. Mine's similar, but closer to the edge of my kettle.

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I bought a set of quick disconnects from morebeer today. One'll attach to the ball valve and the other to tubing that will lead to the CFC that's always below the keggle so I should be good on draining.

so what section at my local HD am I going to find a 1/2" female threaded compression fitting? and I can just take the compression fitting to the pipe section and find the correct size pipe that fits into it?

Start in the plumbing section. All of the local HD's have a rack of brass fittings, organized by type (flare, compression, pipe) and size. Nearby, they should also have some short lengths of 1/2 inch copper pipe. By short, I mean 2 feet long or so.

Grab a piece of 1/2 inch pipe and a 1/2 inch copper elbow, and head for the fittings. You are looking for a compression fitting where the hole in the nut just fits over the pipe. You may have trouble sliding the ferrule over the pipe, since it's a tight fit.

With the compression fitting, one of three things will happen:

1. Right tubing size, wrong pipe thread size.
2. right tubing size, right pipe thread, wrong gender (you want F but get M)
3. Right tubing, right pipe thread, right gender. Hallelujah!

In the event of (1) or (2), you'll have to either find another compression adapter, or cobble up an appropriate adapter to your 1/2 inch male nipple based on your local HD's offering of parts. in the event of (3), you're done, except for getting the ferrule on the pipe, assembling the compression joint, cutting the dip tube to the appropriate lengths, and sweating the elbow. Like i said in an earlier post, I usually have to chamfer the edge of the pipe with emery paper and lightly tap the pipe onto the ferrule with a hammer to make it fit. Once it's on, it tends to slide to where you want it, until you tighten the nut the first time.

Also, it's often a good idea to buy a spare ferrule or two. I've had to re-think my assembly a time or two, and having a spare ferrule saves a trip to the hardware store.

good deal...I'm off to HD tonight

Keep in mind that if you're going with rigid copper pipe, 1/2" is actually 5/8" OD so if you want a compression fitting, it will be a 1/2" Female NPT thread to 5/8" tube compression. This requires a little soldering though.

The No solder solution is to go with a short piece of 1/2" soft copper tubing that you can bend into a gentle curve to meet the bottom, it's a 1/2" FPT to 1/2" compression fitting that you'll need.

I'd prefer to go with the soft tubing. If they don't have it, I guess I can solder a bit.

Here's a 5/8" compression in stainless, but you'd get a brass one and instead of male thread, you'd need female. You can use a 45 degree or 90 Elbow to make the downturn.

for the compression part, do you just use 2 wrenches to clamp it down?

stik the tube in, put one wrench on the lower nut, another wrench on the upper loose nut and crank away?

Yup that's right, though the idea is to thread the main body on to your welded in nipple nice and tight with some teflon tape to seal it. Then you put the nut and ferrule on your copper tubing and insert into the fitting then tighten the nut down. If you had the fitting tight enough, you shouldn't have to hold it with a wrench as you tighten down the compression nut. You'll see what's going on when you have it in your hands though.

ahh, so you don't put it together and then install into the keg?

does the tube rotate once it's compressed or is it stationary?

Personally I think the Dremel is the biggest waste of money I've ever spent. It's too underpowered and weak to do anything worthwhile. The bits are too expensive for something that usually lasts a few minutes a piece before wearing out or falling apart on me. The cutting discs are way to fragile to cut anything harder than balsa wood or thicker than a beer can. I tried cutting the bottom off a 5gal plastic water jug to use as a hopper for my mill. After cutting approx 8 inches of plastic, I had already had 4 cutting discs snap on me. I finished the job with a hand saw, and finished it in half the time as the dremel cut the first 8 inches.

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I picked up the Dremel Advantage set with the flex shaft.. It's their rotary saw/ 1/4" router/rotary tool kit... except it's got a 4.5A motor instead of the puny thing they put in the regular dremel hand tools. Yet it maintains a nice 10-35k RPM variable speed range. Fantastic!

The trick with the cutting discs is to *never ever* bind them in the cut. They'll break every time. If you don't want to have to worry about that, get some fiber reinforced ones, they last 5-10x longer anyways. My dremel does a fine job for small work and the diamond bits are handy for sharpening/shaping carbide tools for my lathe. I used the plunge router base the other day with a patterning bit to cut some round pieces of MDF, worked great!

I paid $69 for my dremel set at costco.. $69 CDN that is.

Matt_and_Katie said:

for the compression part, do you just use 2 wrenches to clamp it down?

stik the tube in, put one wrench on the lower nut, another wrench on the upper loose nut and crank away?

Click to expand...

The first time you itighten the compression side of the fitting, yes. The ferrule goes around the tubing. Tightening the nut squeezes the ferrule, which makes it want to have a smaller ID. The ferrule compresses the tubing, giving a leak-tight seal without the use of teflon or pipe dope.

Once you've installed it the first time and removed it, you can generally get a good enough seal for use as a dip tube by installing the nut hand-tight. Re-using a compression fitting in other applications (like your dishwasher) isn't a very good idea, but for a keggle, it's just fine.

You will have to go buy soft copper tubing by the foot. My HD doesn't sell it by the foot only on big 25' rolls. I had to go to a LPG place and ask for some the last time I got my propane refilled. It was 1/2" which wasn't big enough for my project with 1/2" rigid copper fittings. Just a heads up. I really like my rigid sweated fittings and don't know much about compression fittings so I didn't answer that part, sorry. On mine I threaded everything then marked with a sharpy where the two pieces joined, then took everything off and soldered it up. It is just a 1/2" threaded pipe fitting X ~6"-1/2" rigid copper tubing X 1/2" 90* elbow X ~3"-1/2" tubing again. It was easy to set up, and siphons all but what a paper towel needs to get out of it to be completely empty. I only say this to ask why compression fittings are wanted instead of sweated fittings? Curious is all, not trying to talk you into it or anything.

WortMonger said:

I only say this to ask why compression fittings are wanted instead of sweated fittings? Curious is all, not trying to talk you into it or anything.

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I'm not Matt and Katie, but I can tell you why I used a compression fitting at the bulkhead: It swivels.

I considered using a sweated-on threaded connector at the bulkhead, but decided to use a compression instead so that I can adjust the position of the pickup tube. Also, it should make installing the pickup tube with an el-cheapo chore-boy hopstopper a lot easier, since I can rotate the pickup about the fitting.

The rest of my pickup tune is, like yours, two lengths of copper pipe and a sweated elbow. I'll be de-virginizing the kettle this weekend with a wit, so I should have some photos then.

I sweated a male NPT to 1/2" adapter onto a piece of 1/2" copper that also had an elbow to get down to the very bottom of the keggle. This way I only have copper and stainless inside my keggle. The wort does pass through a brass bal-valve on it's way through the CFC but there is not much time to leach any lead that way.

Good info here. I just went to the hardware store and spent 10 bucks. That covered two 1 ft. sections of soft copper 1/2" pipe, two 1/2" NPT to 1/2" compression fittings, and a pipe bender. I have to fabricate two pick up tubes this week. The pipe bends wonderfully. No elbows, no sweating, just $3.75 in parts per pick up tube that will go straight to the bottom. of the kettle.

EdWort said:

Good info here. I just went to the hardware store and spent 10 bucks. That covered two 1 ft. sections of soft copper 1/2" pipe, two 1/2" NPT to 1/2" compression fittings, and a pipe bender. I have to fabricate two pick up tubes this week. The pipe bends wonderfully. No elbows, no sweating, just $3.75 in parts per pick up tube that will go straight to the bottom. of the kettle.

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WHAT?? NO PICKUP TUBES ON ThE BLICKMANS?????

tbulger said:

WHAT?? NO PICKUP TUBES ON ThE BLICKMANS?????

Click to expand...

Oh yes, they have one. This is for this puppy.



It will have a pickup tube this evening. Asking price is $190.

It will probably sell after I shine it up a bit.

so, I am officially the worst %&*$%^*# solderer that has ever lived.

They didn't have any soft copper pipe at HD so since I was going to have to solder I just bought a 1/2"FPT to whatever size 2' pipe they sold, a 45 degree elbow, a pipe cutter and a torch kit that came with solder and flux.

I measured everything out, started cutting and had a pretty sweet unsoldered dip tube. i soldered the first piece of pipe to the 1/2"FTP piece and everything went fine. I then soldered the piece that will point down into the keg to the 45 degreee elbow and that went fine so all that's left is to solder the 45 degree elbow to the piece of pipe that's soldered to the piece with the 1/2" FPT. I soldered the god damn thing ten ****ing times and it won't take.

I've never soldered before, but seriously, it's not that difficult right? clean the end of the pipe with some fine sand paper, smear flux all over the 2 pieces, heat the **** out of them and smear the solder on?

I did that 10 times and let the piece cool down and every time I'd pick it up, give it a little twist and it'd come free like none of the solder made its way onto the pipe at all.

I'm irritated to death at this point. I'm lucky I have plaster walls and not dry wall or there's be about 10 holes in the walls of my house right now

You may have had too much flux, in which case it pulls all the solder out of the joint and where ever gravity took it. It sounds like everything else went perfect for you. Be sure and heat the fitting you are trying to solder the pipe in first, and then keep tapping the joint with the solder wire until it liquefies. Then just smear around the joint and then wipe around the joint with a damp towel to clean and set it. I only use enough flux to coat everything not gunk things up, but I don't know how much you used so... I have even reheated copper fittings and pulled them apart to use them later, so all is not lost. The damp towel trick was a good one. I was a better solderer after using it because of how good it makes the finished product look. Another trick for small things like this is to hold them with channel locks. I like this so I can pick it up with one hand and wipe around the joint with the damp cloth in one motion. Be careful not to bend the tubing or the fittings though.

EDIT.S. Did you screw your threaded pieces together and line everything up dry and mark them? I forgot to do this on my first attempt and had to reheat and turn my "finished" dip tube inside the keg, not fun.

I like the idea of using a compression fitting inside the keggle for the dip tube, but I don't particularly like brass inside the keggle. Where did you guys get a good priced stainless 1/2" compression fitting? The one I found at McMaster was $17. I was looking for something closer to oh... $5 (Considering a MPT to 1/2" solder connection is like $1.20)

I used brass. I'm not too concerned about the whole leaded brass issue.

And I'm a metallurgist.

Whey the hell can't you buy soft copper pipe in quantities less than 20' anywhere!!!!!!!!

I thinl I may have used too mucj flux. I'm going to break everything down and give it another shot tonigt. I even used the damp cloth and the channel locke.

I've calmed down a bit so I'm ready to give it another try.

more problems with ingredients are popping up though

Some friends of mine used rigid copper tubing and a brass compression fitting and were able to actually bend the rigid tubing using the handle of their keggle and their dip tubes work great.

oh, and I did line everything up insde the keg first and marked all the connections with a sharpie. If all the connections had taken it would have been pretty sweet, but they didn't

I would just redo that one , you'd be surprised how much solder you actually get in the joint.

that works for me then!

keep your fingers crossed!!!

I purchased my compression fittings from Bobby_M recently and he shipped them out for cheap right away. Thanks Bobby_M!!!

Just give it a test to be sure after you're done. You don't want air getting in and stopping your siphon

jds said:

I used brass. I'm not too concerned about the whole leaded brass issue.

And I'm a metallurgist.

Click to expand...

That's good to know. Please elaborate. Thanks!

EdWort said:

That's good to know. Please elaborate. Thanks!

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The EPA thrust to reduce lead below 15 ppb in drinking water is based largely upon toxicology and other studies showing 15 ppb to be potentially problematic in children. Tox levels in adults are quite a bit higher. The key factors that affect leaching of lead into aqueous sources are (1) long residence time, with stagnation, (2) low pH, (3) low alkalinity.

While wort is fairly low in pH (as foodstuffs go), contact time in the boil kettle is relatively short and not stagnant. Alkalinity varies with the brewing water. I base my decision not to worry on the fact that I don't drink nearly as much beer as water, and that the greater health risk comes from all the calories in the beer, and not any lead that might possibly potentially leach from the fitting.

I may try to get a sample of wort from my next brew and a sample of my drinking water sent to my chemist friend for a quick ICP for lead. It would be an interesting experiment.

I don't think you can use too much flux. If the solder won't suck into the joint, you might have overheated the copper to the point where all the flux flowed out. You really only want it hot enough to let the solder flow, no hotter. Also, Make sure the inside of the fitting is well cleaned with a wire brush or sandpaper.

so I got to work on finishing this stuff up Saturday afternoon.

I cleaned up the connection that I couldn't get to take, re-marked it and went to work. It took this time and everything seemed nice and tight.

I boiled the dip tube and brushed the interior of it and installed it.

I brewed yesterday and used my own keggle rather than splitting a batch. I noticed that there were some small bubbles coming from the connection between the 1/2" FNT piece and the first piece of commer tubing I soldered in. The bubbles were VERY slight and I didn't worry about it.

Everything seemed to go well when it was time to chill the wort. There was about 1/2" or wort left in the very bottom part of the keggle and nothing leaked.

Thanks for all the help everyone.