whirlpooling

Has anyone ever tried the idea of a homemade stir plate ramping it up with a bigger fan,magnets and stir bar for creating a whirlpool in your boil kettle, instead of having to buy a pump. Could be used under false bottom with side pickup if your not using a hop bag or whole hops. Is this feasible could five too ten gallons be whirl pooled with big enough equipment ??

Wouldn't the magnet be attracted to the BK?

Shaggyt said:

Wouldn't the magnet be attracted to the BK?

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Not if the kettle is stainless or aluminum. Interesting idea let us know how it works out if you try it. Lots of people just stir and wait to get a whirlpool though.

To be honest, it seems kind of over kill to build a stir plate just for whirlpooling.

Whirlpooling is a side effect of the way I chill. I recirculate by pumping through a coil back to the BK. The return directs the cooled, returning wort around the edge of the BK resulting in a whirlpool.

Assuming you have a strong enough magnet, a big enough stir bar, and a large enough stir plate/motor, I don't see why your idea shouldn't work, just not sure I would add the equipment for just the purpose of whirlpooling.

Ed

Might as well just add a slow speed DC motor with PWM control and a prop into the wort to create the desired whirlpool then remove and let settle.
Simple is best with sanitation and brewing in mind.

if this is feasible i think this might be more sanitary and I do not own a pump and was thinking this would be a cheaper alternative.

Sounds like you have a 3 tier system, gravity thru a CFC into your ferm?
Even if you put your shoulder into it a short while with a paddle this will work with great results just santize the paddle first. End results count the best.

I have an immersion chiller and was think of whirl pooling while chilling to get a faster chill and getting all sediment to center

bellsbrat said:

I have an immersion chiller and was think of whirl pooling while chilling to get a faster chill and getting all sediment to center

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I'd use reply #5 above applied to your system then.

Cool idea ... but imagine the sound of a continuos car crash.

Any changes at the Blackhawk car museum?
It's been 8 years since i've been inside.
I bet your having morning frost behind the hill lately.

How about a handheld blender/mixer? If you could slow it down, you'd be in business!

was able to create a little vortex from 1" stir bar and homemade stir plate for my starters, with about 5 gallons of water in keggle

Would I be correct in thinking this setup would work? I plan on using a false bottom with a center pickup in my BK. Then I am installing a recirculation port up top/side with a whirpool tube. I will be using a plate chiller for cooling. I was thinking of using a pump to move the wort from the BK to the plate chiller, and then out of the plate chiller back to the whirlpool port on the BK. Is that the way it should be done, or should I recirculate the BK by itself for 15 mins to create the whirlpool/cone and then chill with the plate? And at that point I guess I would recirculate until my temp reading was below 80 degress, and then move the output to the fermenter.

Thanks

ox1574 said:

Would I be correct in thinking this setup would work? I plan on using a false bottom with a center pickup in my BK. Then I am installing a recirculation port up top/side with a whirpool tube. I will be using a plate chiller for cooling. I was thinking of using a pump to move the wort from the BK to the plate chiller, and then out of the plate chiller back to the whirlpool port on the BK. Is that the way it should be done, or should I recirculate the BK by itself for 15 mins to create the whirlpool/cone and then chill with the plate? And at that point I guess I would recirculate until my temp reading was below 80 degress, and then move the output to the fermenter.

Thanks

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Whirlpooling doesn't work with a center pickup tube... that is where the trub cone will be located and you would suck all the trub through your plate chiller.

Ohio-Ed said:

Whirlpooling doesn't work with a center pickup tube... that is where the trub cone will be located and you would suck all the trub through your plate chiller.

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I disagree. I have a center pickup and it works just fine for me when whirlpooling. I do, however, use a FB in the BK and I use a tube type CFC, not a plate chiller. My point is that the center pickup does not automatically exclude using the whirlpool technique. The suction at the pickup tube intake is not very strong at all and only minor amounts of debris will enter the tube, but that small amount could spell trouble with a plate chiller.

ox1574 said:

Would I be correct in thinking this setup would work? I plan on using a false bottom with a center pickup in my BK. Then I am installing a recirculation port up top/side with a whirpool tube. I will be using a plate chiller for cooling. I was thinking of using a pump to move the wort from the BK to the plate chiller, and then out of the plate chiller back to the whirlpool port on the BK. Is that the way it should be done, or should I recirculate the BK by itself for 15 mins to create the whirlpool/cone and then chill with the plate? And at that point I guess I would recirculate until my temp reading was below 80 degress, and then move the output to the fermenter.

Thanks

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I do it the first way you described, only I use a CFC rather than a plate chiller. Pumping through a chiller and back to the BK in a continuous loop is done primarily to cool the wort. Swirling or whirlpooling the wort and allowing it to settle out is a separate operation with the intent to form a debris pile or cone near the center of the kettle bottom. These two operations often overlap to some degree, but their purposes are quite different. Your second method will also work, but you only need to get the wort spinning and allow it to come to a rest then wait for 10-30 minutes for everything to settle out. Prolonging the swirling motion does little if anything to improve on this IMO. IOW, extended whirlpooling action when not cooling the wort with a chiller doesn't accomplish much at all.

Yeah I would be using a false bottom and that should stay away from the center pickup tube. I guess I am looking more for help on the actual process/steps to take and in what order.

Catt22 said:

I do it the first way you described, only I use a CFC rather than a plate chiller. Pumping through a chiller and back to the BK in a continuous loop is done primarily to cool the wort. Swirling or whirlpooling the wort and allowing it to settle out is a separate operation with the intent to form a debris pile or cone near the center of the kettle bottom. These two operations often overlap to some degree, but their purposes are quite different. Your second method will also work, but you only need to get the wort spinning and allow it to come to a rest then wait for 10-30 minutes for everything to settle out. Prolonging the swirling motion does little if anything to improve on this IMO. IOW, extended whirlpooling action when not cooling the wort with a chiller doesn't accomplish much at all.

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OK so would you run the whirlpool first only recirculating the the BK itself without the chiller....run that for say 5 mins and then let it settle, and then start the recirculation through the plate chiller and back to the BK until temp is down, then redirect to the fermenter?

ox1574 said:

OK so would you run the whirlpool first only recirculating the the BK itself without the chiller....run that for say 5 mins and then let it settle, and then start the recirculation through the plate chiller and back to the BK until temp is down, then redirect to the fermenter?

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No. Exactly the opposite. Chill first, then stop the pump and let it settle out for 10-30 minutes before transferring to the fermenter(s).

OK so just do it all at the same time. BK --> plate chiller --> BK Whirlpool loop. Wait till it gets down to temp and then let it sit before moving to fermenter. Would there not be an issue of hop particles, etc getting into the plate chiller if I don't do a whirlpool first before sending through the chiller? Is there an issue with keeping the wort below 80 degrees sitting in the BK for 15-30 mins before moving it to the fermenter? Or is protected from bacteria/wild yeast etc at that point?

Catt22 said:

I disagree. I have a center pickup and it works just fine for me when whirlpooling. I do, however, use a FB in the BK and I use a tube type CFC, not a plate chiller. My point is that the center pickup does not automatically exclude using the whirlpool technique. The suction at the pickup tube intake is not very strong at all and only minor amounts of debris will enter the tube, but that small amount could spell trouble with a plate chiller.

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There ya go... Learn something new everyday

I would never thought to try to whirlpool with a center pickup.
Do you gravity feed to the fermentor?
When I pump out of any of my vessels, it creates a pretty good vortex. Obviously, you could just throttle back the flow and pump slower.

Ed

Ohio-Ed said:

There ya go... Learn something new everyday

I would never thought to try to whirlpool with a center pickup.
Do you gravity feed to the fermentor?
When I pump out of any of my vessels, it creates a pretty good vortex. Obviously, you could just throttle back the flow and pump slower.

Ed

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Hey Ed,

I do the circulation thing until the wort is cooled to where I want it, or as close as it's going to get using tap water, then I just switch the output over to the fermenters. I usually pump very slowly through the CFC to the fermenters for some additional cooling (depends on the time of year and whether ale or lager). So yes, after the wort has been cooled and allowed to settle out, I just resume pumping very slowly and direct the output to the waiting fermenter(s).

ox1574 said:

OK so just do it all at the same time. BK --> plate chiller --> BK Whirlpool loop. Wait till it gets down to temp and then let it sit before moving to fermenter. Would there not be an issue of hop particles, etc getting into the plate chiller if I don't do a whirlpool first before sending through the chiller? Is there an issue with keeping the wort below 80 degrees sitting in the BK for 15-30 mins before moving it to the fermenter? Or is protected from bacteria/wild yeast etc at that point?

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Yes, that's basically the way I do it.

Yes, when using a plate chiller there will be an issue with hop particles and other debris. That's the main reason I do not use a plate chiller. I would find a way to install a screen over the pickup tube as a final barrier to debris before it enters the plate chiller. Something like an SS lint screen used on washing machine drain hoses could work for this.

Yes, there is an issue with holding the cooled wort. The wort is very susceptible to contamination at this temperature. Unfortunately, it's near impossible to avoid some degree of exposure. The best we can do is to keep the kettle covered at this stage and protect it as much as possible on the way to the fermenter(s). Aearate the wort and pitch the yeast asap. At that point the yeast is in a foot race with any bacteria or mold that may have gotten into the wort. There will always be some critters in there. It's unavoidable. We just try to beat them to the curb with an abundance of yeast and most times it works for us and the yeas win the battle. This is a damn good thing. Damn good!

I would also think a center pick would negate one of the advantages of whirlpooling as you will still get break material and fine hop particle through your FB

bellsbrat said:

I would also think a center pick would negate one of the advantages of whirlpooling as you will still get break material and fine hop particle through your FB

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A tiny amount does make it through the FB, but it's very fine dust like material that passes right through my pump and the CFC without causing any problem at all. It's a very trivial amount as the suction near the pick up tube opening is not all that great even when running the pump wide open. I do a continuous circulation back to the BK in a loop while chilling and the debris cakes up on the FB. The debris cake works like a filter and by the time the wort is cool, pretty much everything has been trapped on top of the FB and the wort is running clear. I stop the pump and let the wort settle for about 20 minutes and then slowly pump to the fermenters. The slow pumping to the fermenters at the very end is the key to avoiding sucking up much of anything at all. There's only a very gentle suction at the opening of the pickup tube at that stage.

Catt22 said:

A tiny amount does make it through the FB, but it's very fine dust like material that passes right through my pump and the CFC without causing any problem at all. It's a very trivial amount as the suction near the pick up tube opening is not all that great even when running the pump wide open. I do a continuous circulation back to the BK in a loop while chilling and the debris cakes up on the FB. The debris cake works like a filter and by the time the wort is cool, pretty much everything has been trapped on top of the FB and the wort is running clear. I stop the pump and let the wort settle for about 20 minutes and then slowly pump to the fermenters. The slow pumping to the fermenters at the very end is the key to avoiding sucking up much of anything at all. There's only a very gentle suction at the opening of the pickup tube at that stage.

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Great process Catt, as I make notes to self.

What "if" one has a inverted keg then whirlpools, lets settle out then does a quick bottom dump of the keg plus has a bottom drain out against the perimeter of the bottom for pulling off to the fermeter?
I can hear it now what wort is left behind, tilt the keg when down to the last small amount.

BrewBeemer said:

Great process Catt, as I make notes to self.

What "if" one has a inverted keg then whirlpools, lets settle out then does a quick bottom dump of the keg plus has a bottom drain out against the perimeter of the bottom for pulling off to the fermeter?
I can hear it now what wort is left behind, tilt the keg when down to the last small amount.

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The way I visualize it, a bottom drain of any kind would be an issue if firing the kettle with gas. The exit tube would become very hot and anything it contained would be badly scorched.

I would prefer to get rid of the converted keg altogether and buy a real kettle with a conventional side drain. The only reason I can see to use a center pickup tube is due to the concave bottom of the kegs. I do not like the curved bottom, the skirt or the weight of the kegs. Yes, I have one and I use it, but as soon as I can afford a real kettle it will be on the block immediately. I'm licking my lips for a 20 gallon Megapot. The 15.5 gallon keg volume is limiting me too much lately. Too often I find myself bringing a batch to boil with only about 1/2" of freeboard. I know, I could do a more concentrated boil and top up at the end, but I would prefer not to have to resort to that measure.