Missed gravities...please help identify why

So I have done quite a few AG recipes, and it seems that more often than not I am missing my SG (per the recipes in Brewsmith). I have my equipment and efficiency setup in Brewsmith, and I guessed about 72%. It seems I am not even hitting that high mostly.

My setup:
5 Gallon blue sideline cooler for HLT
10 Gallon orange igloo sideline cooler for MLT
Wilser bag lining MLT
11 gallon SS kettle
Cheapo propane burner

I generally go 1.2qts of water per lb of grain, and I preheat the MLT with boiling water about 15 min before I dough in. I use a huge SS whisk to knock out the dough balls, and I usually shoot for a thick mash, not a soupy one...

I typically mash at 154F for 60-70 min, then stir with the whisk, start fly sparging with hot water from the HLT, and vorlauft to get the wort clear before I go to the kettle. Halfway thru the sparge I shut the valves and stir again, then vorlauft once more.

I slowly sparge - it takes 45 min on average. At the end I lift the BIAB and squeeze it slightly to get a bit more out of it.

I crush my own grain with a barley crusher, and I have it set pretty tight. it isn't turning the kernels to flour but it does make each kernel into 4-8 tiny pieces.

I'm not sure why my runnings are rarely what they should be. I did a RIS this weekend and missed the SG by quite a bit - this after a 90+ min boil to reduce the amount of water. I expected 1.106 and got 1.085. That recipe had 21.5lbs of grain in it.

Should I open the MLT and stir during the mash process? I usually drop the lid on and leave it, and always thought stirring would drop my mash temps too much.

Would using a false bottom be better in this case? I don't see how it could be, but I have one I can try I suppose.

I am beginning to think fly sparging is taking more time and not buying me anything, but I don't see how I would gain efficiency by switching really.

Do I have something screwy in Beersmith mobile that is causing my numbers to always be on the low side? What should I doublecheck?

For me my missed gravity's are from my sparge, I batch sparge and not getting my volumes right. I can't guess much about BIAB. I am running in the low 80s myself.

Do you raise the temp to 168 or 170 for a mashout? That might help. I use a CPVC manifold, not a bag, and I slow sparge (like you) and I get 85-90+% efficiency. I also stir the grains once every 15 minutes or so, but I don't think that improves the efficiency too much.

If by raising temp you mean 175F sparge water then yes, but since I am using coolers I can't apply heat unless I do an immersion heater I suppose.

Your manifold is essentially unblockable. A Wilser Bag.

Crush finer and mash thinner, your mash efficiency will go up regardless of if you batch sparge, or fly sparge. A thinner full volume mash in your 10 gallon MLT would also allow full-volume no-sparge brewing with comparable efficiency.

Crush finer. That's the key.

You don't give any SG's, volume, or grain bill information, so we can't diagnose where in your process you might be losing efficiency. To learn more about diagnosing your efficiency issues, check out these posts: link, link, link.

I would suggest you try a batch sparge. Without a false bottom or good manifold, you might be getting channeling during your fly sparge. For batch sparging, you want to target the same run off volume for your initial and sparge run offs. So start with your desired pre-boil volume and divide it in half. Then add your expected grain absorption volume to half the pre-boil volume, and this is your strike volume. Don't worry about a thin mash, as this will actually help your efficiency. Your sparge volume is one half your pre-boil volume.

Your process should look something like this:

1. Mash in, stirring thoroughly to insure that there are no dough balls
2. Close up you mash tun, and wait the planned amount of time.
3. Stir the mash aggressively for a few minutes, vorlauf, and run off at your maximum drain rate. Be sure you drain as much liquid from your mash tun as possible.
4. Take a gravity reading of your first runnings, so that you can calculate your conversion efficiency.
5. Add your sparge water, and stir aggressively for about 5 minutes.
6. Vorlauf and run off at your maximum rate. Be sure you drain as much liquid from your mash tun as possible.
7. Take a pre-boil gravity and volume reading (after mixing the initial and sparge runnings thoroughly), so that you can calculate your mash efficiency and lauter efficiency.
8. Proceed with boil as usual.
   
   Brew on

So I tightened up the rollers on my Barley Crusher. Time will tell. Before adjustment it was set to factory. After adjustment, I can slide a CC in between the rollers and the teeth ever so slightly rub the card so the roller turns. Before adjusting the CC (this was a gift card, with no 'raised' numbers) would simply fall through without engaging either roller.

grrickar said:

So I tightened up the rollers on my Barley Crusher. Time will tell. Before adjustment it was set to factory. After adjustment, I can slide a CC in between the rollers and the teeth ever so slightly rub the card so the roller turns. Before adjusting the CC (this was a gift card, with no 'raised' numbers) would simply fall through without engaging either roller.

Click to expand...

As Gavin C. mentioned, you have a manifold that can't get a stuck sparge (a Wilserbrewer bag) so do what you can to take advantage of that. Crush finer, double crush, anything to get your grain particles smaller.

Mash thinner. 1.2 seems awfully thick and hard to stir properly. Try 2.0 and see how it goes. I usually work with about 2.5 but with a small grain bill have gone as far as 4.0 and got the usual 80+ percent efficiency.

Forget fly sparging. You don't have the right setup to take advantage of it. Batch sparge and stir very well before you drain to get the most sugars out.

Have you allowed for losses in your brewing software? I use basically the same process and the same issues until i sorted my software out to accommodate for my system. Default setting for a few vital bits of information is set to 0 which is not possible. Do you check your gravity through the sparge? Your grains may not have the same potential extract as what again is default in the software, another issue i've had with some pilsner, had to drop the software by .006 to achieve close to the volume i was aiming for

andrewf1985 said:

Have you allowed for losses in your brewing software? I use basically the same process and the same issues until i sorted my software out to accommodate for my system. Default setting for a few vital bits of information is set to 0 which is not possible. Do you check your gravity through the sparge? Your grains may not have the same potential extract as what again is default in the software, another issue i've had with some pilsner, had to drop the software by .006 to achieve close to the volume i was aiming for

Click to expand...

Likely this. I use Brewsmith Mobile, and while I am sure it is me and what variable I have set, it seems to be the common denominator. Perhaps based on my settings it is overly optimistic in my set variables.

I need to start a step one on the next batch and give those numbers a proper check and see what I may have missed.

Don't get me wrong, I have had some decent results in my brewing, but as far as consistency I have consistently missed the SGs proposed by Brewsmith. I am confident in my mashing, as the grain seems to have no residual sweetness, and I have tried both batch and fly sparging (and a hybrid of the two) and haven't seen drastic improvements.

Water PH is something I likely need to give more consideration to. My tap water sucks for brewing so I am using what I suspect is RO water from Menards in the big green jugs. I have not played around with the water profiles or adjusted anything really in that regard.

Are you doing a mashout? With a 1.2 mash ratio you should be able to add boiling water to get to 170* then use the 170* sparge to maintain that temp.

Im still tweeking my program but things are getting better. Probably the way to go.

Hybrid sparge?!? Want to explain that one a bit more? Intriguing

After mash in, I vorlauft even though I technically don't have to with BIAB. Then I open the valves and start the fly sparge, but halfway thru I close the valves, stir with a large SS whisk, vorlauft again, then open the valves and resume the sparge. I think typically with fly sparge your don't stir (I could be wrong on this).