New to kegging - Too much head

Is that possible? 

Seriously though.... Kegged at 12psi and then reduced to 5psi to sample at 3 days and poured nice. Pressured up again to 12 and left until now (7days) in fridge. Reduced it down to 5psi and now I get 3/4 glass of head. What do I need to do? What other info to you need to diagnose?

Tastes great but I'm wearing myself out going back and forth to fill my pint with 2" of brew.

Thanks

What hose length are you using?

6 ft of 1/4" ID

10' is better

My first pour sometimes has a bit more head than my second pour. I think I read somewhere that 1/4 inch tubing requires a longer run like 10' like stevo said. I use 6 feet of 3/16 and it's pretty decent, not too much head and much better after the first pour.

Serving PSI and carb PSI should be the same. 1/4" hose at 10 feet might not be enough. I'd switch to 3/16" and install 10 feet of line. Then trim shorter if needed.

I've heard the opposite, that an increase in length creates more surface area for friction. thoughts??

If you pour a second pint after pouring the first one, is it 3/4 foam too? You most likely have slightly warmer beer in all of that line, which foams more than the proper temp beer in the keg. I agree with going to 3/16" ID tubing at around 6-7 feet. What you may also have to do is pour a few cooling ounces before pouring a pint. I always have to pour a few ounces to get the warmer beer out of the line and cool the tap, after that pouring is fine.

samc said:

Serving PSI and carb PSI should be the same. 1/4" hose at 10 feet might not be enough. I'd switch to 3/16" and install 10 feet of line. Then trim shorter if needed.

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WHOA! I know I've read in several places about force carbing where the beer is pressurized at up to 30psi over night, or over 2 nights, and then ready to be served. No way you're gonna tell me you serve that at 30psi!

Maybe I can be convinced that given enough time, beer pressurized to 5psi will carbonate, but I'm guessing that will take a few weeks.

So many different documents floating around about how much pressure vs time is needed for the carbonation process, but almost every one of them says serving pressure is in the neighborhood of 5psi.

Not sure if my local store has 3/16 tubing, but I'll check.

You need to serve at carb pressure, 12 PSI. You also probably need more than a week at 12 PSI for full carb. You need longer lines and narrower lines. You need something like 20 feet at 1/4", 10 feet at 3/16".

Longer lines DO create more friction. This is GOOD. It causes pressure drop as you pour, meaning that instead of the beer starting at 12 PSIG in the keg and emerging from your tap at 10 PSIG, it starts at 12 PSIG in the keg and emerges from your tap at 1-2 PSI. This means as it drops to atmospheric, (0 PSIG), it doesn't have as far to drop, so it doesn't knock CO2 out of solution.

Friction = good. TURBULANCE = bad....but no worries about that inside your lines.

Oh.....Reading through some of the replies reminded me of something I didn't mention in the OP.

I am using a "picnic spout" currently. Haven't taken the leap to tackle installing a through the wall tap. How much different would that make. (Rules out the warmer beer in the tube as it is all inside the fridge, along with the keg)

Guidry said:

Oh.....Reading through some of the replies reminded me of something I didn't mention in the OP.

I am using a "picnic spout" currently. Haven't taken the leap to tackle installing a through the wall tap. How much different would that make. (Rules out the warmer beer in the tube as it is all inside the fridge, along with the keg)

Click to expand...

It shouldn't change it at all. Just remember when you serve to open the tap fully. It's counterintuitive, but opening it up fully results in less foaming. Even if you're just pouring 1/2 glass, open it all the way. A good analogy is a garden hose. Open it fully, and it's "normal", but pinch it a bit and it comes out with force!

Carbing at 30psi is the quick method. Carbing and serving temps (for standard American ales being run through 3/16" lines of about 6-7 feet) are both about 12psi around 38ish degrees.

Guidry said:

WHOA! I know I've read in several places about force carbing where the beer is pressurized at up to 30psi over night, or over 2 nights, and then ready to be served. No way you're gonna tell me you serve that at 30psi!

Maybe I can be convinced that given enough time, beer pressurized to 5psi will carbonate, but I'm guessing that will take a few weeks.

So many different documents floating around about how much pressure vs time is needed for the carbonation process, but almost every one of them says serving pressure is in the neighborhood of 5psi.

Not sure if my local store has 3/16 tubing, but I'll check.

Click to expand...

Easy turbo. BURST carbing requires extra pressure, like 30 PSI for 2 days. But after that you drop down to 12 PSI.

Your CARBONATION pressure is the pressure at which CO2 is in equilibrium in your beer at your beer temp. This pressure can be found with a carbonation chart. Typically, for most styles, (and volumes of carbonation), it's 10-14 PSI. If you keep your beer at 5 PSI, it will go flat. You have to hold the pressure at the equilibrium pressure required to keep your desired amount of CO2 in solution.

WOW! Going back and reading through some of the stickies I realize I am way off. Looks like my best bet is to grab about 6-8 ft of 3/16 line. OR I'm going to need about 20 ft of 1/4".

I will adjust and report back.

Thanks for all the help!

Guidry said:

WOW! Going back and reading through some of the stickies I realize I am way off. Looks like my best bet is to grab about 6-8 ft of 3/16 line. OR I'm going to need about 20 ft of 1/4".

I will adjust and report back.

Thanks for all the help!

Click to expand...

One reason to do a shorter length of 3/16 instead of a longer length of 1/4 is because of the temperature change between the keg and beer line. I didn't believe that there was a difference until someone told me to go pour a few ounces, check the temperature, then pour a few more ounces and check the temperature. Sure enough, there was a couple of degree difference.

Update: Stopped by one of the local shops over the weekend to pick up some 3/16" tubing. The guy thought I said 3/8" but I caught him before he cut it. Long story short, he tells me that the length and size has no affect on the foaming problem. I am not convinced. He did however show me a document from his supplier of kegging equipment who suggests including "4 to 6 feet of 1/4" tubing with all kegging kits". (Those kits include regulator, keg, CO2 bottle, picnic tap, all connections)

samc said:

Serving PSI and carb PSI should be the same. 1/4" hose at 10 feet might not be enough. I'd switch to 3/16" and install 10 feet of line. Then trim shorter if needed.

Click to expand...

This is exactly what I did and now my pours are a thing of beauty.

Guidry said:

Update: Stopped by one of the local shops over the weekend to pick up some 3/16" tubing. The guy thought I said 3/8" but I caught him before he cut it. Long story short, he tells me that the length and size has no affect on the foaming problem. I am not convinced. He did however show me a document from his supplier of kegging equipment who suggests including "4 to 6 feet of 1/4" tubing with all kegging kits". (Those kits include regulator, keg, CO2 bottle, picnic tap, all connections)

Click to expand...

My LHBS gave me 5-6' of 1/4" line at first, and it sucked. I quickly ordered 50' of 3/16" and it was magical.

It is simple math really, in regards to the resistance of each diameter of line.

Guidry said:

Update: Stopped by one of the local shops over the weekend to pick up some 3/16" tubing. The guy thought I said 3/8" but I caught him before he cut it. Long story short, he tells me that the length and size has no affect on the foaming problem. I am not convinced. He did however show me a document from his supplier of kegging equipment who suggests including "4 to 6 feet of 1/4" tubing with all kegging kits". (Those kits include regulator, keg, CO2 bottle, picnic tap, all connections)

Click to expand...

Your local shop is misinformed. Take it from a chemical engineer with a decent amount of fluid dynamics experience - line length and diameter are two out of the four legs of your perfect pour table, (the other two being temp and keg pressure). They are EXTREMELY important. Also, 5' of 1/4" is frigging useless.

Ignore him, listen to us, and you'll be happy.

shortyjacobs said:

Your local shop is misinformed. Take it from a chemical engineer with a decent amount of fluid dynamics experience - line length and diameter are two out of the four legs of your perfect pour table, (the other two being temp and keg pressure). They are EXTREMELY important. Also, 5' of 1/4" is frigging useless.

Ignore him, listen to us, and you'll be happy.

Click to expand...

Take it from all of us who have used different diameters and lengths. My keg kits came with about 5-6 ft. of 1/4" line and I had nothing but foaming problems. I simply changed to about 8 ft. of 3/16" tubing and when properly carbed, things have been perfect (two fingers wide head).

My first commercial kegerator came with 5' of 1/4" tubing and it wasn't good. Get 15' of 3/16" and cut it smaller if need be.

No trial and error is necessary. There's a formula for this:

L = (P-.5*H)/R

Where L = Length of tubing needed
P = Pressure in keg in psi
H = Height of tap above the middle of the keg in ft
and R = psi drop per foot of line (about 2.5 for 3/16" plastic, 0.7 for 1/4")

I go a little longer just to be safe, but I have no problems using 5' of 3/16" at 12 psi. 15 is certainly overkill.

gr8shandini said:

No trial and error is necessary. There's a formula for this:

L = (P-.5*H)/R

Where L = Length of tubing needed
P = Pressure in keg in psi
H = Height of tap above the middle of the keg in ft
and R = psi drop per foot of line (about 2.5 for 3/16" plastic, 0.7 for 1/4")

I go a little longer just to be safe, but I have no problems using 5' of 3/16" at 12 psi. 15 is certainly overkill.

Click to expand...

That formula only works if you believe 2.5 psi/ft for R. For me at least, that number is more like 1 to 1.5. 5' gave me no end of headaches, 10' works fantastic. Sometimes I wish for 15' when I have my pressure up around 14 or 15 PSI.

shortyjacobs said:

That formula only works if you believe 2.5 psi/ft for R. For me at least, that number is more like 1 to 1.5. 5' gave me no end of headaches, 10' works fantastic. Sometimes I wish for 15' when I have my pressure up around 14 or 15 PSI.

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If you know the manufacturer of the line, you can usually find out the R

Here's another question. I've noticed that the barbs listed for most regulators are shown to be 1/4". Am I going to have to chnge this, or will I be able to force the 3/16th tubing on it?

I'm really confused on this. I've got the same problem as the OP on a Belgian Trappist ale. I didn't know anything about the effect of the tubing length when I built my keezer, so I kept them only as long as needed. The result is that I only have about 18" of tubing on taps 1 and 4 and only about 12" on taps 2 and 3. The thing is, I only have a problem on the Trappist. The other 3 taps pour fine. So I'm left wondering not only why my Trappist is foaming, but why my other three aren't!

I have a kegging calculator/how to built into my Brew Chart/Workbook (below in my signature). It's free to download. The tab has a carbing/serving calculator and a line length calculator. Fully adjustable so that you control the inputs (line size, height above keg, PSI, temperature, etc...). Also has recommendations for anyone that isn't familiar with kegging to make it easy to use.

If anyone has questions please don't hesitate to ask.

cp

Guidry said:

Here's another question. I've noticed that the barbs listed for most regulators are shown to be 1/4". Am I going to have to chnge this, or will I be able to force the 3/16th tubing on it?

Click to expand...

Dip the end of your lines in near boiling water right beforehand and it should soften up enough to stretch over the larger barbs.

Alright! Picked up 15' of 3/16" tube on the way home, hooked it up, cranked up the pressure to 10psi and BAM! (Learned that from Emeril) Poured a nice pint with a two finger head on it.

You guys are freakin' geniuses!

Put two of the epoxy stirrer restrictors in my output tubes for each keg. I use 3 foot long picnic taps with NO issues. My serve pressure is12psi. Restrictors are available from McMaster and have been written about their use on this forum.

My keezer is narrow and limited in space. I don't have room for 10' x 4 in serving tubing along with CO2 lines.

Guidry said:

You guys are freakin' geniuses!

Click to expand...

Nah, we're just expert drinkers.

CPooley4 said:

I have a kegging calculator/how to built into my Brew Chart/Workbook (below in my signature). It's free to download. The tab has a carbing/serving calculator and a line length calculator. Fully adjustable so that you control the inputs (line size, height above keg, PSI, temperature, etc...). Also has recommendations for anyone that isn't familiar with kegging to make it easy to use.

If anyone has questions please don't hesitate to ask.

cp

Click to expand...

CPooley, I have your spreadsheet, and I really like it. Just checked it to see about carbing a beer I just kegged and noticed something I'm not so sure about in the beer line calculator. Assume a keg is about 3ft tall, and my tap is 6" above the top of keg. That puts it 2ft about center of keg. If I have 3/16" line, using the default "0.75" pour rate, I get a recommended length of line of 2.85'. Does that sound strange to you?

Guidry said:

CPooley, I have your spreadsheet, and I really like it. Just checked it to see about carbing a beer I just kegged and noticed something I'm not so sure about in the beer line calculator. Assume a keg is about 3ft tall, and my tap is 6" above the top of keg. That puts it 2ft about center of keg. If I have 3/16" line, using the default "0.75" pour rate, I get a recommended length of line of 2.85'. Does that sound strange to you?

Click to expand...

Yes, that sounds strange. I just input your numbers and got an estimated length of 7.69 (assuming serving temp of 38 degrees and 2.5 CO2). With that I would recommend starting with 10 feet of line and cutting down from there just to be safe.

Your numbers for that hypothetical should read:

- 38 for Serving Temp
- 2.5 for Desired CO2 level
- PSI to use 11 (this is calculated for you, not something you input)
- 2 for Height Above Middle of Keg
- .75 for Flow Rate
- .1875 for Size of Line (in inches)
- 7.69 for Length of Line Needed

Hope this helps. Adjusting for the serving temp and desired CO2 will render adjustments to the length of line needed calc keep in mind. If you have any further questions don't hesitate to ask.

cp

Instead of increasing the length of my tubing I added 2 bayonet mixers to each keg. My beer pours perfectly now, it's used to be very foamy after it was fully carbed. I got the idea from this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/cure-your-short-hose-troubles-100151/#post1092943