Harvesting Yeast: Primary vs. Secondary Fermentation

Which seems to give the most viable yeast when harvesting from a yeast cake, primary or secondary fermentation? You'd have more yeast from the primary, but more dead cells as well. In my head it would make more sense to use the yeast from the secondary to reduce the likelihood of autolysis of the yeast cells. I've seen the awesome thread on yeast washing but was just considering pouring my next batch directly onto the yeast cake that is already in the carboy. I make the same base cider every time I brew and would like to save money by not buying as much yeast packets. Nottingham sets me back $4 a packet from my LHBS and I'd rather use that money on more brew.

Use the yeast from primary, but you won't need all of it.

Once you transfer your cider off the yeast, swirl it up and save it in 2-3 sanitized mason jars. One jar will contain enough yeast for a second batch.

There is not a problem putting your new batch onto a freshly used yeast cake as long as it has a low generation count. Or you can add 2 (or more) quarts of boiled and cooled water to your fermenter and swirl vigorously. Let settle for a few minutes and pour the light weight stuff off of the heavy stuff into a large sterile bottle or jug. As soon as three distinct layers form, pour the top two into your fermenter, add juice and/or sugar and you are all set.

MindenMan said:

There is not a problem putting your new batch onto a freshly used yeast cake as long as it has a low generation count. Or you can add 2 (or more) quarts of boiled and cooled water to your fermenter and swirl vigorously. Let settle for a few minutes and pour the light weight stuff off of the heavy stuff into a large sterile bottle or jug. As soon as three distinct layers form, pour the top two into your fermenter, add juice and/or sugar and you are all set.

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Thanks mindenman. I appreciate your response. I'll definitely try it with my next batch.

I buy yeast once every 12-15 months. I keep a fresh "mother" yeast in my fridge, and it has only been used to make more yeast. I make a stepped up starter for every batch of brew holding back 1 cup or so to go into the fridge to be stepped up for the next batch. Since my yeast is technically all first generation brewed I could probably go longer w/o buying new, but $8.00 a year for yeast is an expenditure I am comfortable with.

Hey mindenman. What exactly do you mean by a stepped up starter? Do you have some additional step you do before pitching your starter? Also, is the pitch rate longer or shorter using your starter over that of a dry yeast packet?

Icarus9414 said:

Hey mindenman. What exactly do you mean by a stepped up starter? Do you have some additional step you do before pitching your starter? Also, is the pitch rate longer or shorter using your starter over that of a dry yeast packet?

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I think you're confused on some terminology.
A step starter means he makes a starter, say around 1L or so, then cold crashes it in the fridge, then decants the liquid atop, and makes another starter.

Pitch rate has to do with the # of cells you're pitching, and time is not related at all. You're probably thinking of lag time, which is improperly named and needs to die a slow and painful death. Time to high krausen kinda makes sense, but not really in cider as their aren't really proteins and such to form a thick krausen.

Anyways, the # of cells created by a starter are often much higher than a single pack of dry yeast. Otherwise we wouldn't make starters. The "lag time" is also usually much shorter due to the larger cell count, and the yeast are ready and waiting to ferment some stuff rather than having to grow and rehydrate their cell walls as in dry yeast.

I definitely improperly used the two terms. Lag time was what I intended to use. Thanks for the clarification.