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Skarekrough

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No, seriously....

Let me give a bit of a backstory:

I've been brewing on and off with mostly success for about ten years. A few years ago I ran into a spot of bad luck and made my first bad batch. This was confirmed by many as well as the proprietor of the brew shop I frequent.

After this bad batch I made my second and then third bad batch.

I set it all aside for about a year and then took the bottles up to a local place that does brewing and managed to progress by making only HALF of a bad batch.

So, it has become apparent that the bottles I am using are suspect. They have been cleaned with all the usual tools (B Brite, soap, lots and lots of elbow grease) and this issue is still occurring.

I could just up and buy new bottles, but being a nerd of sorts I know that glass can be sanitized and this should be something I can do.

So I'm looking for suggestions for the strongest thing I can use to clean these bottles out so I can feel comfortable brewing once again.

Thanks for all the help!
 
I know PBW is not a sanitizer...It's a cleaner, clean bottles with it then use Idophore.

I've never had an issue with using B brite or PBW and Idophore on my bottles....

Are you sure it is the bottles? Maybe you have a scratch in your fermenter with a nasty bug down in it or something.
 
Oxyclean Free & water soak, bottle brush insides, and rinse. Then use Starsan no rinse sanitizer!

That being said are you sure it's not a tubing, racking cane, or bottle filler issue?
Glass doesn't offer much of a foothold for bacteria like clear PVC tubing or that pesky bend in the racking cane! Replace your racking canes, siphons, bottling nibs, and any hosing that you use at bottling. I'm betting it's something in there.
 
cruckin78 said:
Are you sure it is the bottles? Maybe you have a scratch in your fermenter with a nasty bug down in it or something.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I was thinking. The OP already said that they've done everything possible to get the bottles clean and sanitized. Time to start looking at something else, like a scratched fermenter or some super worn out hoses that are hiding a bug.
 
cruckin78 said:
I know PBW is not a sanitizer...It's a cleaner, clean bottles with it then use Idophore.

I've never had an issue with using B brite or PBW and Idophore on my bottles....

Are you sure it is the bottles? Maybe you have a scratch in your fermenter with a nasty bug down in it or something.
Click to expand...

As I stated the problem followed the bottles;

I did three batches at my home using all the same gear and all of them went South.

I took my bottles to a place an hour from me and used their setup to brew. I used the bottles I brought to....well...bottle. Half of that yield was bad.

Considering I thought it would have been near impossible for the issue to travel with the bottles it would make sense that they were used repeatedly and when I did my last batch on someone else's setup and brewed twice as much as I used to, half the bottles exhibited the issue.

I hope that makes sense.
 
Got'cha Skarekrough. Do the bottles show any stress marks? If so, it might be time to get a new set of bottles.
 
I read somewhere on here that some "brewhouses" over time develop a strain of bacteria that are resistant to the "house" cleaner. Try switching cleaners and sanitizers to a different brand.

No unlike how some bacteria are now immune to antibiotics. MIRSA or something like that. Good luck solving this problem. I can only imagine how disappointing it is to put all that time (and money) into a batch only to have it go south.
 
What kind of bottles are these? Regular cappers or fliptop grolsch style bottles? If the fliptops, have the gaskets been replaced? Also, as someone else has asked..how are the batches bad? off flavors or odors? Junk floating in the bottle after carbonation?

If you are positive it is the bottles, I would switch up to a different cleaner like pbw. Mix up a hot batch in a bucket and soak the bottles for a while. Then rinse with hot water to get rid of pbw residue. Then use a no rinse sanitizer like star san when you bottle.

If that still doesn't work, I would recycle the bottles.
 
Personally I heat sanitize my bottles in the dishwasher, might be a change of pace

Also might be a reasonable pursuit to just get some new bottles, lol
 
All of these are good suggestions. I think that you could do any/all of those AND step it up to baking them in the oven. Apparently this can be done with most bottles, but you are most likely going to have to start them at room temp in the oven (not throw them in once it is preheated. I could be wrong on that, but I thought I read it somewhere on this board.
 
I pbw and scrub every bottle with the right brush. Rinse rinse rinse and rinse again changing the water frequently when rinsing. Then starsan and let it sit for more than the standard minute. All of this is done with a clean bottle tree and vitinator. I couldn't imagine doing it any other way. The only times I get a bad batch is when I do something pre-bottling it happens we all just try to keep it to a minimum. So in short get a bottle tree and vitinator and scrub scrub scrub I think it will help
 
To me it sounds like a good excuse to go out and buy a few cases of new bottles full of delicious beer.
 
yeah, the first thing that occurred to me wasn't your bottles, but your caps. if you have regular press on caps, try getting new ones (and possibly a new container to store them in). if they are grolsch style, get new gaskets. then bleach your bottles, and give them a quick boil.

also, is the 'bad' taste something like cardboard? is it possible to rule out oxidation?
 
You still haven't said what you currently use to sanitize you bottles. Also you never mentioned if you used that place's bottling equipment to bottle or if you used your own bottling gear to fil and cap them. Or if you sanitize you caps.

Frankly I find it highly unlikely that your bottles are bas enough to infect every beer in your batch. Like you said, they are glass, and if you are thoroughly washing and sanitizing them with a good sanitizer, then they can't really be the source of your infect.

Unless you are perhap sanitizing the bottles not on bottling day but before and leaving them exposed. Then that could be why, because you are re-infecting the surface of the bottles by ineffective sanitization. Remember the best way to sanitize is with a no-rinse, wet contact sanitizer like starsan, iodophor, or even the proper concentration of bleach. But bottling wet.

And not rinsing the sanitizer off with tap water.

I really think we, and you, are missing something, and something pretty obvious while focussing on the least likely scenario, and that of your bottles being the source of the infection. Unless someone is peeing in them behind your back. :D
 
I literally put my bottles into buckets of sanitizer and leave them there while I rack to the bottling bucket. Then I take them from the sanitizer, pour them out and fill them. Then I take a bottle cap from a bowl filled with sanitizer and put that on. There is no sitting around of the bottles exposed to air at all. That might be a little over-the-top anal, but just a thought. Sounds like something other than your bottles are the culprit unless you're doing something like Revvy suggested and not prepping them shortly before you use them.
 
Skarekrough said:
The three things I've used have been soap (dish-washing type) B-Brite and lots of elbow grease.
Click to expand...

Go buy a bottle of Starsan and use the solution to sanitize EVERY part of your bottling setup. Soap, B-Brite, and Elbow grease will NOT sanitize anything. B-Brite is a cleaner, not a sanitizer. You have to rise it with tap water, which is NOT sanitized.

You're experiencing infections because you aren't using a sanitizer in your process. Starsan is a no-rinse, food-safe sanitizer. Spray/dip everything just before it touches your beer, let sit for 30 seconds contact time and your surface will be sanitized and ready to use. The residual starsan wont affect your beer at all.
 
mojotele said:
Exactly what do you mean by "bad?" Does it look strange, or just taste strange? And how does it taste?
Click to expand...

It tastes off, very sour and unpleasant. It also foams over violently when opened and requires leaving it in the sink where it pretty much empties most of the beer down the drain. *sniff*sniff*

ian-atx said:
What kind of bottles are these? Regular cappers or fliptop grolsch style bottles?
Click to expand...

They are regular style bottles, not the flip-tops.

munche said:
Personally I heat sanitize my bottles in the dishwasher, might be a change of pace

Also might be a reasonable pursuit to just get some new bottles, lol
Click to expand...

They were heat sanitized when I used the other setup.

akthor said:
Start kegging
Click to expand...

...I think you may be on to something there. But before I can put all that together I might want to put together a batch or two to be certain that it's the gear that's cursed and not just me!!!!

japhroaig said:
yeah, the first thing that occurred to me wasn't your bottles, but your caps. if you have regular press on caps, try getting new ones (and possibly a new container to store them in). if they are grolsch style, get new gaskets. then bleach your bottles, and give them a quick boil.
Click to expand...

I used the facilities caps when I took the bottles to the other place to brew. The idea of bleaching has crossed my mind. Not sure how unacceptable that it in the realm of homebrewing though.
 
If you're foaming over violently and you've added the right amount of priming sugar then it sounds like there's an infection in there that's fermenting some of the normally unfermentable sugars. Which could also cause the sour flavor from what I've been reading on here.
 
I use the oven method mentioned in another post.

My procedure if interested:
Put aluminum foil “caps” on bottles, place in cold oven, heat to 350, maintain 350 for 1 hour, turn oven off and allow to cool slowly (or over night).
Remove bottles, box and store. Can be stored indefinitely as long as foil caps stay on.
 
jet35a said:
I use the oven method mentioned in another post.

My procedure if interested:
Put aluminum foil “caps” on bottles, place in cold oven, heat to 350, maintain 350 for 1 hour, turn oven off and allow to cool slowly (or over night).
Remove bottles, box and store. Can be stored indefinitely as long as foil caps stay on.
Click to expand...

+1 to this. It would sterilize (not just sanitize) the bottles. If you have problems after this, you can be sure it is NOT your bottles. But I would modify this suggestion slightly to bottling the batch as soon as the bottles are cool.

Plus, I agree with Revvy... It is hard to believe it is your glass bottles. What is your bottling setup? Have you replaced your bucket/spigot? Bottling wand? Hose? Did you boil your priming solution? How does the batch taste just before bottling? What about your water supply? Any changes?
 
Skarekrough said:
The three things I've used have been soap (dish-washing type) B-Brite and lots of elbow grease.
Click to expand...

None of those are sanititzers, they are cleaners and don't use kitchen dish soap on brewing equipment and bottles.

Thoroughly clean the bottles with a good quality detergent product, the powdered carbonate-based stuff like your B-Brite or the aforementioned PBW which is the strongest one out there. Once the bottles are cleaned and rinsed follow with a working solution of Iodophor or Star-San.

Also as was mentioned above, check, clean and sanitize everything else in your brewery and if there is any doubt about them replace all used plastic tubing with new. :mug:
 
Go to the doctor and get that sinus infection treated or at least use a dust mask so that you stop sneezing in your brew and on your bottles.

But seriously, since it appears that you may well have isolated the bottles as being at least most of the problem, and you aren't "really" sanitizing, use the 1-hour in the 350* oven to STERILIZE for your next batch, and all your empties for that matter, and then StarSan forever after for each new batch.

Would it matter what process you use (extract, partial, AG), since the boiling sterilizes the wort? I don't believe so... but I'm wondering if there might possibly be another common denominator that MIGHT come from your supplier? At this point I can only think it's the priming sugar IF you didn't use the other brewery's sugar.

Otherwise? As slight a possiblilty as it may seem, since you aren't sanitizing your bottles, AND "you" are the only other common denominator, well.... get rid of that head cold and sneeze into your elbow. :D
 
1. Soak in PBW
2. Use a bottle brush on them
3. 2nd Soak in PBW
4. Sterilize them in a pressure cooker

The process above, while tedious, will give you sterile glass to work with. Personally however, I'd be more suspect of your bottle filler, plastic lines, bottling spigot, etc.
 

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