small batch parti-gyle question

Im planning a small test batch of a big beer.

its an imperial stout with an OG 1.105.

Im planning to use only first runnings for the main batch (no sparge), but thought that with the left over grist, I could get some second runnings to save for starter wort (or possibly another small batch).

My question is, how do I calculate the amount of water I should use for a certain gravity of 2nd runnings?

Ive read a couple of threads on this but usually its approached from the opposite direction-- where someone wants certain volumes of 1080, 1050, and 1030 wort, and they are calculating what the main batch should be.

I know what my main batch will be but just dont want to waste the grist.

thoughts?

If you get 1.105 with your first runnings you should get ~1.050 with your second runnings of equal gallons.

Here are a couple good links:
Parti-Gyle Brewing
Partigyle Tables

The partigyle calculator should help you figure it out.

What I do when I'm just making starter wort is to run off a gallon or so and boil it down to 1.07 or so. I then freeze it in portions in the freezer. When it's time to make a start, I take a portion out, add some water and bring it to a boil. Once it dilutes down to 1.03 I have my starter. It's more convenient to store small amounts at a higher gravity than larger amounts at a lower gravity.

hamiltont said:

If you get 1.105 with your first runnings you should get ~1.050 with your second runnings of equal gallons.

Here are a couple good links:
Parti-Gyle Brewing
Partigyle Tables

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Funny...those are the tables I was looking at in the thread I referenced. I wasn't sure I was interpreting the info correctly but it sounds like maybe I was.

So, according to that link, i will be doing a 1/2 1/2, right?

Now, if I'm planning to get just over 3 gal of first runnings, does that mean I want to sparge with 3 gal? Or do I include water remaining in the grain and add water to maintain the same thickness as the mash?

Thanks for the help!!

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Batch_Sparge_and_Party_Gyle_Simulator

In the second sentence there is a link for an excel document. It's extremely accurate. I've used it a few times.

1/2 1/2 Split is correct. If you get 5 gallons from your first runnings then you will sparge with 5 gallons because your grains are saturated (no absorption) and your mash tun dead space is still full. To make it easy you can calculate your grain bill for a 10 gallon batch and using the chart you want to have it's predicted OG at ~1.079. If in the end if you're OG's aren't right you can do some blending between them. I've done that many times when the 1st runnings OG is too high & the 2nd runnings are lower than I want. Cheers!!!

hamiltont said:

To make it easy you can calculate your grain bill for a 10 gallon batch and using the chart you want to have it's predicted OG at ~1.079.

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Any suggestions on how to plan the recipe for the second, smaller batch working from the other direction. Should I just play w the original recipe in beer tools and adjust to 1050 OG?

Also, I planned the first recipe by decreasing the efficiency to 55%...should I go back and use this table for my planned OG (for the main batch) or does it matter?

For that matter, i wonder what efficiency the table is based on...anyone know?

ok, using beertools pro, whats the best way to formulate a recipe for this type of brew?

Do I just make a mash that will come out with the total preboil volume at the prescribed OG to allow splitting 1/2 1/2 or 1/3 2/3?

i guess my confusion is comming from my BIAB mash method.

has anyone parti-gyle'd with BIAB?



ok, im done staring at beertools for the night.. my brain hurts.

HItransplant said:

Also, I planned the first recipe by decreasing the efficiency to 55%...should I go back and use this table for my planned OG (for the main batch) or does it matter?

For that matter, i wonder what efficiency the table is based on...anyone know?

Click to expand...

I use my usual efficiency. Reason being. You're still mashing & sparging. If you normally get 70% for a 10 gallon batch of 1.079 beer, use that. Cheers!!!

hamiltont said:

I use my usual efficiency. Reason being. You're still mashing & sparging. If you normally get 70% for a 10 gallon batch of 1.079 beer, use that. Cheers!!!

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Thanks for the help hamilton...i have another question.

If I'm doing a biab mash, and my tun is limited on space (I won't have enough room to mash with the volume I want to have for first runnings), how should I increase my first runnings w/o diluting them?

'Bout the only think I can suggest is to mash at your max & sparge to get your first runnings volume. Then sparge again & again until you get your 2nd runnings volume. What do you anticipate your mash grain to water ratio will be? Hopefully you can get at least 1:1. This will play a major role in determining your efficiency. Cheers!!!

hamiltont said:

'Bout the only think I can suggest is to mash at your max & sparge to get your first runnings volume. Then sparge again & again until you get your 2nd runnings volume. What do you anticipate your mash grain to water ratio will be? Hopefully you can get at least 1:1. This will play a major role in determining your efficiency. Cheers!!!

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Well, I can mash in my bigger kettle

So, ideally I want to mash with enough water that when I lauter (aka, pull the bag of grain out and let it drain), my first running volume matches my planned preboil volume.
Then, I sparge w the volume I want the 1st partigyle to be (since there won't be any more absorption).

Sound about right?

Thanks again for all your help

Oh, and how do you then suggest figuring out the recipe for each batch ( mostly the hop schedule, but I also have late additions).

Can I make a dummy grain bill w just 2-row to hit gravity and use that to build my hop schedule and figure out how much molasses I want to add?

HItransplant said:

Oh, and how do you then suggest figuring out the recipe for each batch ( mostly the hop schedule, but I also have late additions).

Can I make a dummy grain bill w just 2-row to hit gravity and use that to build my hop schedule and figure out how much molasses I want to add?

Click to expand...

You need to "dummy" your SG with the molasses to balance your hop addition before boil... That way you don't end too sweet.. Why are you adding molasses? Sorry drunk from bowling tonight and just got on...

Oops

edmanster said:

You need to "dummy" your SG with the molasses to balance your hop addition before boil... That way you don't end too sweet.. Why are you adding molasses? Sorry drunk from bowling tonight and just got on...

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Who you callin dummy? Kidding... But seriously, I'm not sure what you mean by dummying my SG.

I'm adding molasses for flavor..it will obviously boost OG a little too, but the intent is for flavor

Wow.. Fell asleep quick last nite. Couldn't be from the bowling(drinking) league .. If I have a well balanced beer that I'm doing a parti-gyle with and want to change up the second batch running with different hops and so on, I input my original recipe into my brewing software and tweak the estimated OG to the SG of the second gyle by lowering my % grains and then add in any other fermentables, chang my hop additions and try to match the style of what I want for IBU's or hop balance and hop flavor. For the molasses flavor I wouldn't do any big late hop addition's and keep the bitterness low.. Hope this helps.. I've done it a couple times but I mainly wing it and cut my hops in half for second runnings and turn it into a session style of the main recipe. Other times I boost the second runnings with DME/LME and sometimes dextrose and change up the hops.. My next parti-gyle is a cream ale and the second gyle a raspberry cream ale.. In the future I want to do a belgian triple a belgian wit and a hefe all from the same grain bill. I will probably end up watering my first runnings down because the addition of candy sugar to the triple.. And then orange and coriander for the second and a low %abv hefe with hardly any hops.. I'm excited to give this one a try

TheMan said:

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Batch_Sparge_and_Party_Gyle_Simulator

In the second sentence there is a link for an excel document. It's extremely accurate. I've used it a few times.

Click to expand...

I'm quoting myself here, this is sad...go to this link and use the simulator. Not sure if you checked it out yet, but it will give you exactly what you're looking for. It will tell you what you are getting with your 1st, 2nd and 3rd runnings. It will also tell you what efficiency to plan for for each runnings. Also, it tells you what your batch would be if you combined 1st and 2nd runnings, 2nd and 3rd runnings, or all three.

TheMan said:

I'm quoting myself here, this is sad..

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Lol... I looked at it last night for a minute but didn't get a chance to do a couple simulations due to the double vision but I'm gonna check it out tonight and try my triple batch threw it.. I want to try a all wheat and add the enzymes to convert but concerned about my water profile.. Might need to soften up and lower my ph with each sparge..

haha, that's ok. I just wanted to make sure you guys didn't miss it. I find that spreadsheet incredibly useful for these things. It's been more accurate than beersmith for me. Kaiser did a great job on it.

TheMan said:

haha, that's ok. I just wanted to make sure you guys didn't miss it. I find that spreadsheet incredibly useful for these things. It's been more accurate than beersmith for me. Kaiser did a great job on it.

Click to expand...

Sweet, thanks for that.

I was thinking, with beertools, why even bother w a grain bill since the ibu calc is independent... You could just input the style you think you want to shoot for, leave the grain out of it and just plan the hop additions. You already know what the OG is and what the grain bill looks like, right?

Yeah, I've found different opinions on the ibu calculation...some say the grainbill is dependent, some say not. I have found others claim it is only in really high OG beers the hops aren't utilized the same. Either way, I use the partigyle spreadsheet to figure my OG, then I base the hop schedule on a 1.05 brew in beersmith.

In the end it doesn't really matter. As long as you use the same method for calculating it every time and take notes you will know if you need more or less for future brews.

TheMan said:

I use the partigyle spreadsheet to figure my OG, then I base the hop schedule on a 1.05 brew in beersmith.

Click to expand...

That's what I was planning to do (especially since mosher's table says my partigyle will be 1050) ;-).

Dunno, It makes sense to base IBUs on gravity for balance, but I can't imagine how specifics of grain bill would affect beertools IBU calcs. To me it seems like if you know what your OG is then you just need to make sure your boil vol is accurate and hit the IBUs you want. I wouldn't think you'd even need to put any grain in the program. But, I'm no expert.

Anyone else care to weigh in on this?

What I was originally going to do was design a primary batch at 1105 w enough water in the initial mash for my target preboil. Then sparge w enough water to get my 2nd preboil.

Can someone tell me why this is different than planning a recipe via mosher's partigyle guide....ie, a 1079 w a 1105 1st run and a 1050 2nd...

What am I missing?

Frankly after trying to use his guide a couple of times, my first runnings are consistently higher and second runnings consistently lower than what he says.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong when I design the mother recipe.

k. i used the simulator last night and did a batch.. my first runnings where higher than it said. second was a little under and the third was about on.. i think it might help most people to get the idea of what they want and if the third running is worth the sparge. my gyle readings where what i normally expect when i use a 18# grain bill so it is a good program..

ok, heres another question.


when im done mashing and sparging, ill have 2 volumes of wort to boil, but i only have one burner (cant brew inside).

can one batch sit while im boiling the other? Or, should i do a mash out or something?

HItransplant said:

ok, heres another question.


when im done mashing and sparging, ill have 2 volumes of wort to boil, but i only have one burner (cant brew inside).

can one batch sit while im boiling the other? Or, should i do a mash out or something?

Click to expand...

yes... i pour the runnings off into a few primarys that im not using.. it was about a 8 hour brew night last nite..

edmanster said:

yes... i pour the runnings off into a few primarys that im not using.. it was about a 8 hour brew night last nite..

Click to expand...

well.. I have a pot it can hang out in... I just cant do 2 boils at the same time.

im just worried about problems if it sits there for an hour while I boil the first runnings.

Is this a valid concern?

HItransplant said:

well.. I have a pot it can hang out in... I just cant do 2 boils at the same time.

im just worried about problems if it sits there for an hour while I boil the first runnings.

Is this a valid concern?

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anything that would get in there will be killed from the boil unless you got kiddies that might throw a toy in when your not lookin... almost happend to me one time when i had my lid off checkin my OG before pitchen the yeast.. turned around for a second and at the time my 3rd was 3 and she was quick on the table about to let barbie go for a dunk... true story...lol