Sugar, Malt, Hops, What's the right combination?

I recently got into brewing my own beer. I've had a great deal of fun and am hooked. My question for all you brew goo-roo's is what happens when you put to much sugar in a batch? Can you use up all your yeast before bottling? Is there any rule of thumb I can go by other then my hydrometer reading? Such as: if I use X amount of malt, then I should use roughly X amount of corn sugar.

Yes, cane or corn sugar should compriese no more than 10% of your fermentables. In this case Malt.

Sugar does not make good beer. It ferments but will thin it out and makes it watery. It only serves to raise the ABV.

a damn good rule to go by is to use the least possible amount of corn sugar. It can give you a cidery sweet flavor that you don't really want in your beer. If you must use it there's a ratio you're supposed to stay under (maybe 20% of the grain bill? Somebody on here will know.) It may be cheaper than malt extract, but I think you'll find that your beers turn out much better when you omit the corn sugar.

If you're talking about using corn sugar to prime your beer before bottling, I think 3/4 cup per 5 gallons is the accepted standard.

And you most likely won't "use up" your yeast before bottling. I think that something to that effect would only happen if you had a stuck fermentation or didn't make a starter on a very very heavy beer. But keep in mind that there are many Millions of yeast cells suspended in your beer. And they're all very hungry.


Edit: ScottT posted while I was writing this - you shouldn't use any more than 10% sugar

I've never used corn sugar for anything except carbonation. Sometimes I'll use cane sugar in ciders to boost the starting gravity, but in ales, it's hops, malt, water, yeast. The original beer purity laws said hops, malt & water. Yeast was discovered later and once brewers started cultivating it, the law was changed.

Actually had some poser at an ale fest ask me if any of the ales on tap were "Four ingredient ales." I asked him, "What four ingredients did you have in mind?" He didn't know! Poser! Other than the Kona with coffee, they all were.

Yeast is alive and it will just keep munching until there is nothing left to eat OR the ABV is so high it kills them. So, if you put too much sugar/malt in a batch, you are left with a stuck ferment and a sweeter ale than you would want. That's where champagne yeast comes in, it can handle ABV's of 14% without changing the flavor and people will add it to stuck ferments and high gravity ales, like barley wines.

This is all really good advise and I thank you. So are you telling me then, that if I only use malt, and my hydrometer reads where I want it, then I am good to go?

if by "good to go" you mean ready to bottle...

check your hydrometer readings 3 days in a row. If they remain unchanged, you should be o.k. to bottle.

If you rack your beer to a secondary fermenter, you can let it chill for a while and forget about it while it ages. That way, you never have to worry about taking lots of readings and you can just bottle when you get the chance.

that said, you should still use some sort of sugar to carbonate your beer. This is called priming. 3/4 cup of corn sugar should do the trick - or you could use 2/3 cup of DME. (I'm pretty sure that's accurate, somebody back me up) ... just rack the beer off the yeast cake and then stir in the sugar, then you're ready to bottle!

oh, and the guy @ the festival might've been posing, but he had to have meant well. I hope u took the opportunity to educate him rather than chastise him

Well by "good to go" I mean: If I only use malt extract, hops, and yeast, and my hydrometer reads SG of 45 and my target gravity is 45, then my beer should niether to watered down, nor too thick. I guess what I'm really asking is what constitutes for just the "right" ending beer consistancy (not to think or thin)?: The SG hydrometer reading?

Greenhorn said:

I guess what I'm really asking is what constitutes for just the "right" ending beer consistancy (not to think or thin)?: The SG hydrometer reading?

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well, there are some different schools of thought on this. My take on it is, who really cares what some numbers on your hydrometer say - bottle it, condition it, and Taste it. What ultimately determines the "right" ending beer consistency is Entirely up to your taste buds. Unless of course you are submitting your beer to a competition, in which case it would be a good idea to monitor your beer closely in every aspect.

Dragonfly said:

that said, you should still use some sort of sugar to carbonate your beer. This is called priming. 3/4 cup of corn sugar should do the trick - or you could use 2/3 cup of DME. (I'm pretty sure that's accurate, somebody back me up)

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1 1/4 cup of dme boiled for 10 minutes in 2 cups of water.

El Pistolero said:

1 1/4 cup of dme boiled for 10 minutes in 2 cups of water.

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Yup, DME is less fermentable then Corn Sugar, so you need more of it to get the same level of carbination.

Greenhorn: As far as hitting your target starting gravity. Just hitting your OG target doesn't predict what the end result. Other factors that you'll be looking at include your terminal / final gravity reading as well as the percentage difference between your original and final gravities (% apparent attenuation).

LupusUmbrus said:

As far as hitting your target starting gravity. Just hitting your OG target doesn't predict what the end result. Other factors that you'll be looking at include your terminal / final gravity reading as well as the percentage difference between your original and final gravities (% apparent attenuation).

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What % difference are you looking for?

If the recipe says the OG should be 1045 and you get 1045, then you should pitch the yeast and start the ferment. You've done a good job following the recipe.

One of my ongoing arguments with other homebrewers is simply this, if you can't consistantly hit the target OG & FG you need to look at your techniques. (Don't freak if you didn't hit the number, pitch the yeast and think about exactly what you did) I'm not advocating megabrew rigidity, but hitting your number means you can make changes to a recipe and know what to expect. The guy I used to brew with never did the same thing twice. Every batch was a new discovery and just about all of them were good, but I can't replicate anything he did. Unfortunately, he died last year, so the legendary Stiffy (a bastardized scottish ale) is history.

I receintly wet (right off of the vine) hopped an IPA. I know how it would have tasted if I had dry-hopped with the same hop. So, I know the new mowed lawn flavor is due to the wet hopping. I also know that I'll never do it again, but no one in either brewing club I belong to could tell me what to expect.

El Pistolero said:

What % difference are you looking for?

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Not sure if this question is directed my way, but I was refering to the fact that lower attenuation will mean a fuller body and/or be sweeter in taste while a more well attenuated beer will be drier and/or lighter in body. I'd guesstimate in the range of 70-85% depending on style.

I, too, try to be as rigorous as is practicable in my garage with my equipment. I'm one of the SG slaves! I tend to hop around recipes, but when I find 'the one' I want to be able to tweak it and effect reproducible results until I get it exactly where I want it. I've managed to raise my efficiency 15 points from where I started and I'm hitting my targets fairly consistently now (knock on wood).

LupusUmbrus said:

Yup, DME is less fermentable then Corn Sugar, so you need more of it to get the same level of carbination.

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Here's a question, and maybe the answer is out there somewhere, but:

How many fermentables by weight are required to give a 5g batch average carbonation? Is corn sugar completely fermented? So whatever 3/4c of corn sugar weighs, I should aim for that weight of fermentables in other priming ingredients such as DME? Or do different fermentables have different densities?

Maybe it's an experimentation thing. Basically, I want to experiment with priming with different ingredients and being able to more or less scientifically determine how much material to use.

BeeGee said:

How many fermentables by weight are required to give a 5g batch average carbonation? Is corn sugar completely fermented? So whatever 3/4c of corn sugar weighs, I should aim for that weight of fermentables in other priming ingredients such as DME? Or do different fermentables have different densities?

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I know that corn sugar is basically completely fermentable. Maybe a percent or two impurities in there, but most of it will ferment. And 3/4 cup is 4 oz by weight.

I can't answer anything else, but I would assume densities are different for various sugars.

-walker

BeeGee said:

Maybe it's an experimentation thing. Basically, I want to experiment with priming with different ingredients and being able to more or less scientifically determine how much material to use.

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What kinds of things are you considering priming with? You can use Palmer's nomograph to figure up an amount of corn or cane sugar. Using 4oz corn=1.25 cup DME, you can draw up another scale for DME (but that DME is going to vary brand-to-brand.)


To use the nomograph, draw a line from the temperature of your beer through the Volumes of CO2 that you want, to the scale for sugar. The intersection of your line and the sugar scale gives the weight of either corn or cane sugar in ounces to be added to five gallons of beer to achieve the desired carbonation level.
-walker

Walker said:

I know that corn sugar is basically completely fermentable. Maybe a percent or two impurities in there, but most of it will ferment. And 3/4 cup is 4 oz by weight.

I can't answer anything else, but I would assume densities are different for various sugars.

-walker

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In any case, it's a place to start. If I assume that various fermentable sugars (ose's) are roughly similar in density/fermentation, then I can say I need 4oz of fermentables for an average carbonation of 5g. Knowing the % of fermentables/unfermentables in a given substance, I can figure out how much I need by weight.

Walker said:

What kinds of things are you considering priming with?

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The main thing that got me going yesterday is agave nectar which I found detailed information on (sugar makeup, % fermentables, ph, etc). I imagine there are other interesting ingredients that may impart different qualities much the way extract, brown sugar, etc do.

ah, yes... the agave sugar. If you end up doing this, I'm interested in hearing how it turns out!

-walker

BeeGee said:

The main thing that got me going yesterday is agave nectar which I found detailed information on (sugar makeup, % fermentables, ph, etc). I imagine there are other interesting ingredients that may impart different qualities much the way extract, brown sugar, etc do.

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Did you like the tequila flavored beer that was going around a few years back? If not, you might not care for the agave nectar.

but would the nectar necessarily have the FLAVOR of tequila once fermented? I thought that a large part of that flavor might come from aging in barrels or something.

-walker

El Pistolero said:

Did you like the tequila flavored beer that was going around a few years back? If not, you might not care for the agave nectar.

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I never tried it, but tequila is one of the few hard liquors I really do like. I'm not convinced that just using agave nectar (which is more like molasses or honey than anything else) would necessarily impart a tequila-esque flavor if used as an ingredient in the boil or for priming, but it might. I plan to try both methods once I get my ducks in a row.

Didn't the 'tequizas' of the world have actual tequila/tequila flavor and/or lime added? I don't plan to try either of those methods. I'll simply have some fermented, but not distilled, agave nectar in my brew.

I guess I'll find out!

Walker said:

but would the nectar necessarily have the FLAVOR of tequila once fermented? I thought that a large part of that flavor might come from aging in barrels or something.

-walker

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The nectar is both fermented and distilled. You then wind up with 3 classifications (and we're only talking about 100% blue agave tequila made in Tequila here...no blends or other crap):

Silver: distilled, but not aged nor put in barrels.
Reposado: aged in barrels for some period of time I don't recall (becomes amber from barrels)
Añejo: aged in barrels longer than reposado

BeeGee said:

Didn't the 'tequizas' of the world have actual tequila/tequila flavor and/or lime added? I don't plan to try either of those methods. I'll simply have some fermented, but not distilled, agave nectar in my brew.

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Don't know how they made them, but most tequila these days claims to be 100% agave, so I'd guess your nectar would have some tequila taste to it...you'd probably have to use a bunch to bring it out tho.

BeeGee said:

The nectar is both fermented and distilled. You then wind up with 3 classifications (and we're only talking about 100% blue agave tequila made in Tequila here...no blends or other crap):

Silver: distilled, but not aged nor put in barrels.
Reposado: aged in barrels for some period of time I don't recall (becomes amber from barrels)
Añejo: aged in barrels longer than reposado

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Good point. However, when I think tequila, I think 'Añejo'.

BeeGee said:

The nectar is both fermented and distilled. You then wind up with 3 classifications (and we're only talking about 100% blue agave tequila made in Tequila here...no blends or other crap):

Silver: distilled, but not aged nor put in barrels.
Reposado: aged in barrels for some period of time I don't recall (becomes amber from barrels)
Añejo: aged in barrels longer than reposado

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Dang, you're a tequila guru...I'm gonna shut my mouth now.

Walker said:

Good point. However, when I think tequila, I think 'Añejo'.

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That's the best for sipping, but there's nothing wrong with reposado, either. While some people consider it a defilement of good tequila, I occasionally indulge in a margarita with the wife in which case I think the sharpness of a silver comes through the best.

El Pistolero said:

Dang, you're a tequila guru...I'm gonna shut my mouth now.

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:cross:

Not really, but the wife is from Guadalajara which is about 1hr from Tequila. We've spent some time there and have a family friend with a distillery.

BeeGee said:

That's the best for sipping, but there's nothing wrong with reposado, either. While some people consider it a defilement of good tequila, I occasionally indulge in a margarita with the wife in which case I think the sharpness of a silver comes through the best.

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No argument there.

Come to think of it.... I have some reposado given as a gift from my sister-in-law's boyfriend (Mexican guy who currently lives in El Paso), but I haven't cracked that bottle open yet. Been too busy with the beer.

As for the aging of Reposado... I *think* Añejo has to be aged for at least one year to get that title, so Reposado might just be the same thing aged less than one year.

edit: found this online....

-walker

BeeGee said:

Not really, but the wife is from Guadalajara which is about 1hr from Tequila. We've spent some time there and have a family friend with a distillery.

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So can I trouble you for your opinion on "the best" tequila?

And I like my 'rita's with 2 oz reposedo and .5 oz silver for bite.

El Pistolero said:

So can I trouble you for your opinion on "the best" tequila?

And I like my 'rita's with 2 oz reposedo and .5 oz silver for bite.

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My personal favorite is Espolon just because we have a personal association (non-professional) with the distillery and it's a premium tequila (~$30-35 750ml reposado). Don Julio is another one I like a lot and is more widely available, as well as Herradura and Patron. Arrette was one I didn't care that much for, but I think it's just my personal tastes.

I haven't tried any of the super-premiums that fetch $100-500 a bottle such as Herradura Selecion Suprema or Patron Platinum.

What do you think of Cabo Wabo?

El Pistolero said:

What do you think of Cabo Wabo?

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Haven't tried it. But I do like Sammy! I've heard it's very good and is authentic. I believe Sammy bought a fairly old family distillery that had been in business for a while.

Yea, the story I heard was that he was down there one time and liked it so well that he bought the distillery so he'd always have a supply for his club. It's pretty good, but the price always makes me feel guilty so I generally buy Don Julio cuz it's a couple bucks cheaper.

Nothing wrong with DJ in my book. It's my father-in-law's personal favorite, although he's no big drinker by any stretch of the imagination.

I found Agave nector at a health food store. Dang expensive. Anyone ever use date sugar? It's actually powdered dates and I have heard of it being used but I don't know what it's like in beer.