Steeping VS Mashing

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mcaple1

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Hey everyone. I wouldn't call myself a veteran at homebrewing, but by no means am I a rookie either. My question is simple. Many people say that some grains simply just cannot be steeped. So what do we do...mash them. OK, that's all fine and good, but what are the real differences between steeping and mashing, minus the attention to the temperature of the water that the grains are introduced to?

When I did extract brewing, I would steep my specialty grains at 150 for 30 minutes. Now that I do all-grain, I see no real difference in my process considering that I mash usually around 150 for 60 minutes. So why do people say, "well, you can't just steep pale malt, you have to mash it". Great, then tell me this, isn't brew in a bag basically the same thing as a giant muslin bag for steeping grains.

Please someone save me from this insanity!!! :drunk::drunk::drunk:
 
mcaple1 said:
Hey everyone. I wouldn't call myself a veteran at homebrewing, but by no means am I a rookie either. My question is simple. Many people say that some grains simply just cannot be steeped. So what do we do...mash them. OK, that's all fine and good, but what are the real differences between steeping and mashing, minus the attention to the temperature of the water that the grains are introduced to?

When I did extract brewing, I would steep my specialty grains at 150 for 30 minutes. Now that I do all-grain, I see no real difference in my process considering that I mash usually around 150 for 60 minutes. So why do people say, "well, you can't just steep pale malt, you have to mash it". Great, then tell me this, isn't brew in a bag basically the same thing as a giant muslin bag for steeping grains.

Please someone save me from this insanity!!! :drunk::drunk::drunk:
Click to expand...

The process is basically the same. The difference is the part you can't see- enzyme activity.

For steeping, it's like making tea. You get color and flavor, and it's not pH dependent so the volume of water doesn't matter, and the temperature of the water doesn't matter much.

Mashing requires a set volume of water for a prescribed time, so that the enzymes can do their magic, turning starch into sugars. It does tend to work best at 1-2 quarts of water per pound of grain (to keep the pH in the right area) and at a prescribed temperature of between 145 and 160 degrees so that the enzymes aren't denatured and are active.
 
Right...but most people do generally steep at 150 for 30 minutes, which correct me if I'm wrong, but that is when most starch conversion has happened anyway. As far as pH goes, I know a lot of people put a lot of emphasis on it's importance, but I literally use the same water that I would normally steep specialty grains in as I mash in, and have had no problem. It's not like I'm using Ammonia or Hydrogen Peroxide for strike water.

I guess maybe I am arguing semantics here, but it just seems silly to me. So much emphasis is placed on mashing, when there really is a large spectrum for doing it "correctly". For instance, a temperature range between 145-160 (I understand the spectrum) and 1-2 qt/lb of strike water...which has been argued by some well known brewers can go as high as 4-6 qt/lb without issues. I think I have officially confused myself now...thanks Yooper.
 
And since I have your attention Yooper, I currently use the cooler method for mashing. When I see people using a tiered setup and they add their grains to warm water and raise the temp to mash temp, aren't they kind of rolling the dice when it comes to staying in an area of the conversion zone that they don't want to be in...i.e. they want to mash at 156, but they spend 5+ minutes getting there from 145. Wont this make their beer drier than they want it.
 
mcaple1 said:
Right...but most people do generally steep at 150 for 30 minutes, which correct me if I'm wrong, but that is when most starch conversion has happened anyway. As far as pH goes, I know a lot of people put a lot of emphasis on it's importance, but I literally use the same water that I would normally steep specialty grains in as I mash in, and have had no problem. It's not like I'm using Ammonia or Hydrogen Peroxide for strike water.

I guess maybe I am arguing semantics here, but it just seems silly to me. So much emphasis is placed on mashing, when there really is a large spectrum for doing it "correctly". For instance, a temperature range between 145-160 (I understand the spectrum) and 1-2 qt/lb of strike water...which has been argued by some well known brewers can go as high as 4-6 qt/lb without issues. I think I have officially confused myself now...thanks Yooper.
Click to expand...

Well, I never steeped at 150 for 30 minutes, but I guess some people do. I always steeped in the 150s for no more than about 20 minutes. Once you get the flavor and color out, there is no benefit to going longer. But it won't hurt if you do.

But in AG brewing, pH is HUGELY important. If you have too much water (like in steeping), you will have a too-high pH, and have poor conversion and/or flavor issues. If you went up to 4-6 qt/pound (I never heard of any well-known brewers doing this), you would definitely have too high a pH for proper conversion and flavor.
 
mcaple1 said:
And since I have your attention Yooper, I currently use the cooler method for mashing. When I see people using a tiered setup and they add their grains to warm water and raise the temp to mash temp, aren't they kind of rolling the dice when it comes to staying in an area of the conversion zone that they don't want to be in...i.e. they want to mash at 156, but they spend 5+ minutes getting there from 145. Wont this make their beer drier than they want it.
Click to expand...

Not in 5 minutes. Conversion doesn't happen that fast, and it happens slower at lower temperatures. For example, a mash at 158 may be fully converted in 20 minutes. But a mash at 147 might take 90 minutes to fully convert. Consider some other things, like step mashes. Different enzymes are more active at different temperatures.

For a decoction on my BoPils, I did a protein rest at 133, the first saccrification rest at 149, the second saccrification rest at 158, and then decocted to mash out.
 
Yooper,

I could have sworn I saw the 4-6 qt/lb thing on a presentation at the NHC...but I digress. I agree with you that that is way too diluted for proper conversion, so I'm with you on that one.

Regarding decoction mashing, when do you think that kind of mashing technique really benefits the beer. I only batch sparge, and I get around 80% efficiency with that. I really see no purpose in adding the extra effort/time into stepped/decoction mashes as well as protein rests. Aren't most grains nowadays fully modified and not need the rest?

By the way, thanks for the info and the speedy replies. ;)
 
mcaple1 said:
Yooper,

I could have sworn I saw the 4-6 qt/lb thing on a presentation at the NHC...but I digress. I agree with you that that is way too diluted for proper conversion, so I'm with you on that one.

Regarding decoction mashing, when do you think that kind of mashing technique really benefits the beer. I only batch sparge, and I get around 80% efficiency with that. I really see no purpose in adding the extra effort/time into stepped/decoction mashes as well as protein rests. Aren't most grains nowadays fully modified and not need the rest?

By the way, thanks for the info and the speedy replies. ;)
Click to expand...

Yes, for the most part you don't need a protein rest most of the time. For a heavy to wheat beer, or an adjunct laden beer, it may be a good idea.

Decoctions are great for making a "richer" beer, due to the maillard reactions. I especially like it for BoPils and Vienna lagers.
 
Hey Yooper, what about BIAB?? I have been doing this as my exclusive all grain and am getting about 76 percent conversion, and making my best beers yet. Granted I am not up at those dilution levels, but I am in between 3 and 4 qt/lbs.
 
[ame]http://youtu.be/bZI5i_zNWwo[/ame]

He talks about Diastatic Power and what not. Might help clear things up a little bit.
 
mcaple1 said:
Yooper,

I could have sworn I saw the 4-6 qt/lb thing on a presentation at the NHC...but I digress. I agree with you that that is way too diluted for proper conversion, so I'm with you on that one.

Regarding decoction mashing, when do you think that kind of mashing technique really benefits the beer. I only batch sparge, and I get around 80% efficiency with that. I really see no purpose in adding the extra effort/time into stepped/decoction mashes as well as protein rests. Aren't most grains nowadays fully modified and not need the rest?

By the way, thanks for the info and the speedy replies. ;)
Click to expand...

Sure it wasn't 4-6 l/kg?

For a 5 gallon batch and a 12 lb grist 4 qts per lb would have you at 48 quarts, or 12 gallons of water. You would start the boil with 10 gallons or slightly more. Doesn't make any sense.
 
mcaple1 said:
Hey everyone. I wouldn't call myself a veteran at homebrewing, but by no means am I a rookie either. My question is simple. Many people say that some grains simply just cannot be steeped. So what do we do...mash them. OK, that's all fine and good, but what are the real differences between steeping and mashing, minus the attention to the temperature of the water that the grains are introduced to?
Click to expand...

It's been said already but mashing requires use of base malts with diastatic power and the end goal is starch to sugar conversion. Steeping makes use of caramalts and others for flavor and color extraction with minimal sugar extraction.
 
To conduct a successful mash you need to control five variables:

1. Time (can be as little as 10 min with modern, highly-modified malts)
2. Temperature (63-73°C/145-174°F)
3. pH (4.8-5.8, roughly)
4. Liquor-to-grist ratio (<12 L/kg, 6 qt/lb)
5. Enzymatic activity (>30°Lintner)

In a steep, you can get #1-4 (though you don't have to), but without an enzymatically active base malt you won't get #5.
 
Right right...I'm not saying that you can "mash" specialty grains without a base malt...I'm saying that you can "steep" base malts and effectively be mashing them at the same time as long as you are within the correct temp range, time, qt/lb...etc. That's why the phrase..."you can't steep base malts" confuses me. You can "steep" base malts, but you need to consider the length of time, the temp, the qt/lb...etc...so I guess I'm arguing semantics....now worries people. BIAB to me, although I have never done it...sure seems like a giant steep.

@ a10t2, you note a 6 qt-lb liquor to grist ratio. Does this prove my earlier statement of 4-6 qt/lb. For the record, I never go above 1.5 qt/lb.
 
I'm not sure I see where you're going here. Yes, mashing is essentially the same as steeping only in the fact that you're making grain wet.

I'll say it another way. Racing is a form of driving but not all driving is racing. We use specific words when generic words are not descriptive enough to differentiate discrete things.

The term steeping in the context of brewing is different than mashing in its intent and effect.
 

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