Multiple yeast packs for starter

I was just reading through the article on beersmith posted in January about proper yeast starters and it basically states that unless you're making a huge starter (like 3 gallons) you need to use multiple packs/vials of yeast AND a starter. This seems like a very cost prohibitive method for home brewing. Does anybody have any experience with this or have you find a single pack and a 1-2L starter to be sufficient?

Use the Mr. Malty site as a guide... http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

Give it your OG (or expected OG) and other parameters and it will tell you what size starter you should go for. You can adjust it so that you use either a single package of yeast, or multiple...

IMO you'd be much better off brewing a small beer (aka large starter), pouring off the beer after fermentation, and pitching the yeast. For a typical 1.050-1.060 wort, a 1 liter/quart starter should be more than sufficient. My last beer was a 1.057 that fermented out in four days at 65 degrees with that size starter. Lagers should be pitched a lot more due to cold fermentation and that is all that I know about that.

Depends on the beer and method of making the starter. High gravity beers require more yeast cells for optimum fermentation, and a starter that isn't stirred, shaken, etc produces less yeast cells than one that is. So between those two variables, its not uncommon to see something like a 3 gallon starter (if you are using something like Mr. Malty)

So if you wanted to start a 3 gallon starter right off the bat, you'd need multiple packs/vials of yeast to prevent underpitching. However, you could do a two stage starter and avoid this. Starter by pitching a single yeast pack/vial into a small starter (say 2L/0.5 gallon), let it ferment out, then pitch into a larger volume. Other than dealing with a larger starter volume, this would allow you to only use one vial/pack.

The best option if you absolutely much need to make a 3 gallon starter is to first brew a smaller beer than uses a smaller starter or no starter at all. Use the yeast slurry leftovef from the first beer for the beer that requires the large starter. Plus you'll have an extra 5 gallons of beer!!

pvtschultz said:

IMO you'd be much better off brewing a small beer (aka large starter), pouring off the beer after fermentation, and pitching the yeast. For a typical 1.050-1.060 wort, a 1 liter/quart starter should be more than sufficient. My last beer was a 1.057 that fermented out in four days at 65 degrees with that size starter. Lagers should be pitched a lot more due to cold fermentation and that is all that I know about that.

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By "pouring off" I hope you mean to bottle/keg/secondary....not dispose of.

Yeah I know about MrMalty, but that article basically refutes it. Or at least seems to. It says that for a 5.25 gallon 1.050 beer, you would need a 3.2 liter starter made with 2 packs of yeast. That just seems excessive to me.

No, pour it off. It's just a starter solution of DME and water, not hopped. Although, my last batch yielded almost six gallons for a five gallon beer and the extra could have been used for a couple starters.

cysiam said:

Yeah I know about MrMalty, but that article basically refutes it. Or at least seems to. It says that for a 5.25 gallon 1.050 beer, you would need a 3.2 liter starter made with 2 packs of yeast. That just seems excessive to me.

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Think you answered your own question here... I think going with that large of a starter for a 1.050 brew is more than over the top.

Of course, if you harvest/wash yeast (it's in a sticky) then you can pitch much more in each batch. I have about 4oz of yeast in a ball jar that I plan to use. Since the brew I'll be making will have an OG of around 1.070, I'll pull out only a small amount, putting it into a starter 1-2 days before brew day. My starters have been in 2 quart jars lately (about 2/3 filled)... Starting with a good amount of yeast helps.

IF you're just going with a simple starter, that size could be needed. But, I don't think many of us (here) do simple starters. We give it a swirl/shake during the starter time, or at least give it plenty of O2 when we make the starter (or both)...

If you have a gallon jar/jug you can use to make starters with, I would. Keep this in mind, though... Most liquid yeast packs are pretty small, in ML of yeast (50ml for Wyeast Activator packs)... So, even 2 packs is just 100ml of yeast (a couple of ounces)... From the Wyeast site (probably going to try this for my next starter) they give their recommendation on a starter composition... http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_makingastarter.cfm

Recipe
1 cup DME (100g, 3.5oz)
½ tsp Wyeast Nutrient
1qt.(1L) H2O

Mix DME, nutrient, and water.
Boil 20 minutes to sterilize.
Pour into a sanitized flask or jar with loose lid or foil.
Allow to cool to 70°F.
Shake well and add yeast culture.

I have nutrient on hand I can use... So, I'll use more DME than I have been (I usually use about 1/4-1/2 cup with 1qt water) and see how it goes. Will probably be the last of my DME I have, but it will be a good test...

I would use yeast nutrient in any decent OG brew... For me, that's anything close to (or over) 1.060...

pvtschultz said:

No, pour it off. It's just a starter solution of DME and water, not hopped. Although, my last batch yielded almost six gallons for a five gallon beer and the extra could have been used for a couple starters.

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Well, you could also brew an actual small batch of beer to drink and re-use that yeast.

But that article does seem to overlook the idea of just not pitching the full starter into your new beer. Maybe I didn't read it closely enough to see why. I think it's more or less standard practice here to not pour the entire starter into the new batch for big beers. Certainly it's cheaper than buying a second smack pack.

Seems like an awful long article to go through just to reinforce that you should make a starter for most brews (with liquid yeast)... Of course, IF you can get fresher yeast, then you'll have more good cells in it. The LHBS I visit often has the Wyeast Activator packs that are under two weeks old. I can ask them to include a specific yeast (from Wyeast especially) and they will include it with their next order (typically place either on Sunday or Monday, arriving on Thursday). So, with that, I'll have yeast dated from just a couple of days previous.

I didn't see in the article if they mentioned washing yeast. Of course, I didn't read the entire thing, so it could be in there.

When I make a starter, I'll decant most of the clear liquid (technically it's beer by then) and keep just enough so that I can get the yeast cake into a fluid enough state so that it pours into the primary well. I typically get visible fermentation sign (looking at the wort, not the airlock) within 12 hours that way.

With washing yeast, you're able to reserve much more than you'd get from either a vial or smack pack of yeast (typically 50ml there)... So if I have washed, and reserved, yeast that's 125-187ml, how would that factor in their computations? With Mr. Malty, you can see how that factors in.. I wouldn't just pitch the yeast slurry in right from the fridge, or even once up to room/pitching temp... I'll still make a starter so that the yeast has a chance to get it's boots on before going to the party...

I do see the amount of yeast going into a starter, along with the size of the starter, being dependent on the OG of the brew. A lower OG won't need as much yeast, where a higher OG will need more yeast at pitching time. Difference from a 1.040 brew and 1.055 brew is probably rather small, compared with going from a 1.050 to 1.070 (or above)...

I would say that it's a good idea to get the amount of yeast going into the wort as close to the amount called for by Mr. Malty, as possible. Not saying you need to nail it on the head, but within a decent margin would be a good idea. Do I always do this? Probably not. But, I do the best I can with the hardware on hand, and the amount of yeast I have to work with...

cysiam said:

Yeah I know about MrMalty, but that article basically refutes it. Or at least seems to. It says that for a 5.25 gallon 1.050 beer, you would need a 3.2 liter starter made with 2 packs of yeast. That just seems excessive to me.

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Where do you see that? The article uses data from Chris White and Jamil Zanasheiff's newish yeast book and Jamil is the author of the Mr. Malty site. Also, it seems like the articles basically tells you how to calculate by hand what Mr. Malty does for you automatically.

I read both parts of that article and I don't take home that you need to make that large a starter. He says repeatedly that for 5.25 gal of 1.048 beer you need 177 billion cells. He also says that in a 2 L starter pitched with 1 packet of yeast (100 billion cells) you should expect a growth rate of 2.05, giving you 205 billion cells, which is more than enough for that 1.048 beer. In fact, according to Mr. Malty, this is enough to do 5.25 gal of 1.056 beer. Again, that's with a reasonably sized 2 L starter. That seems in line with what the general wisdom around HBT is.

From my own experience, I make about a 1.5 L starter for basically every batch, with intermittent shaking, and never have a problem. My last beer went from 1.066 to 1.006 in 5 days.