Using lots of chalk to raise the RA

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maida7

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I've been using the EZ water calculator and have noticed that with my darker beers, I end up adding a boat load of chalk to get the RA in the proper range for the SRM.

What's the deal? Is there an error in the spreadsheet? At what point do I just give up on matching the RA to the SRM? All this chalk can't be needed.
 
Check out AJ's post here. It's in that uber-long thread about the spreadsheet. AJ has been adding some really good stuff on water chemistry lately, if not a little myth-busting as well.

Cliff notes: You probably don't need to add any chalk at all or at least not nearly as much as the spreadsheet tells you to (I don't know your water).

Are you actually measuring mash pH? If not I think that's another thing that will be suggested; measure then correct (as opposed to just calculating and hoping).
 
I can't think of ANY reason to use chalk in a beer. If your RA is low, that's probably ok. You want a good mash pH, so if your pH is too low you could add some base to brng it up, but I don't think that would be an issue.
 
At what point do I just give up on matching the RA to the SRM?

The best time is before you brew your first batch of beer.

All this chalk can't be needed.

It isn't. There is an error in the spreadsheets - they shouldn't advise you to set mash chemistry dependent on color.

YooperBrew said:
I can't think of ANY reason to use chalk in a beer.

For 99% of brewing that's true. The one exception I can think of is where you wish to be absolutely authentic in terms of duplicating the conditions under which the beer was brewed e.g. you want to brew a Burton Ale with genuine Burton water. If you set out to synthesize Burton water from deionized water you will have to add epsom salts, gypsum and chalk but you will have to dissolve the chalk with carbon dioxide and, as this is a big pain, you are better off finding a water source with the desired level of bicarbonate (alkalinity) and adding the other salts. This may not, of course, be possible.

I guess the other case is where you brew a very dark beer with a very soft water. I have had correspondents tell me that they have to add chalk to the mash to keep it from going too low. My experiments tell me that the black malt content in these beers would be more than I could tolerate. Adding to this that many brewers use strips for pH measurement and that they apparently read 0.3 low and I come back to the conclusion that it would be very rare circumstances in which one actually needed to add chalk.
 
What base? It was my understanding that the chalk is used to balance the acidity of the darker malts. If not chalk what would you use to raise the RA?

Right- I meant chalk or another base. It's NOT the RA, though. It's the mash pH. That's the only use I can see for adding chalk to the mash water. If your pH is too low (not likely at all!), that would be the only indication that a base would be needed. (and the base in this case is usually chalk).

Ajdelange explained it much better than I did.
 
What base? It was my understanding that the chalk is used to balance the acidity of the darker malts. If not chalk what would you use to raise the RA?

Any of several bases can be used. There is nothing wrong with chalk for this purpose except that you will seldom, if ever, actually have to balance malt acids. But if, for whatever reason, you wanted a mash pH higher than what you have got you can add some chalk to it. Other candidates are lye (sodium hydroxide). I am notrecommending adding Drano to your mash (and not because of the aluminum content). Sodium bicarbonate will work too as would sodium carbonate. All these are not so good because they add sodium. Potassium hydroxide would work (no sodium). Lime (quick = CaO or slaked = Ca(OH)2) would also work. Milk of magnesia (Mg(OH)2), and magnesium carbonate (MgCO3) could be used as well.

I have never heard of anyone actually using any of these with the exception of chalk. The one I would probably go for before any of the others would be lime because that can be bought at any supermarket in food grade.
 
Check out AJ's post here. It's in that uber-long thread about the spreadsheet. AJ has been adding some really good stuff on water chemistry lately, if not a little myth-busting as well.

Cliff notes: You probably don't need to add any chalk at all or at least not nearly as much as the spreadsheet tells you to (I don't know your water).

Are you actually measuring mash pH? If not I think that's another thing that will be suggested; measure then correct (as opposed to just calculating and hoping).

My tap water has a alkalinity of 31 as CaC03.
0 calcium
0 magnesium
10 sodium
3 sulfate
2 chloride

I have tried to measure the mash pH but the strips I bought at the LHBS don't seam to work. I dip them in the mash and they just don't change color.

I've been using the EZ spreadsheet and the beer tastes great but I the dark beers use a ton of chalk and/or baking soda get the RA to match the SRM
 
AJ has a spreadsheet on his site (wetnewf.org) but he says it's more complicated and I haven't used it.

I envy you for having that water. You can always add some calcium.

FWIW, my experience with pH strips has not been very good. I had a canister of the 'beer range' strips and they were telling me my mash pH was fine and dandy. They were showing low 5s and all I was doing was diluting with distilled and using the common salts. But I was running out of strips so I got a new canister...then next brew day decided to compare the old strips to the new ones. Woopsie. New strips said I was way higher, like 5.8, which if I'm understanding some of AJs posts is exactly what I should have been expecting. Using the new strips I haven't gotten a mash pH below 5.7 (I just got some lactic acid and sauermalt so I hope to change this). A pH meter is on my list. I'd rather have no reading than an incorrect one.
 
The EZ spreadsheet is fine as long as you ignore the SRM/RA recommendations and do not add chalk or bicarbonate. But if you ignore the SRM/RA thing there should never be a reason why you would want to add chalk unless, as I mentioned above, you are trying to emulate a carbonaceous water. And that you would want to do very rarely because carbonate you put in to be authentic often also has to be taken back out in order to mimic what the original brewers did. Think Munich Helles.

That said, you are certainly welcome to have a look at mine. If you download it be sure to download the Users Manual too or you probably won't be able to figure out how it works.
 
The EZ spreadsheet is fine as long as you ignore the SRM/RA recommendations and do not add chalk or bicarbonate. But if you ignore the SRM/RA thing there should never be a reason why you would want to add chalk unless, as I mentioned above, you are trying to emulate a carbonaceous water. And that you would want to do very rarely because carbonate you put in to be authentic often also has to be taken back out in order to mimic what the original brewers did. Think Munich Helles.

That said, you are certainly welcome to have a look at mine. If you download it be sure to download the Users Manual too or you probably won't be able to figure out how it works.

Wow that is a very complicated spreadsheet. It looks like more trouble then it's worth.

But back to the question or RA/SRM. Your directly contradicting what John Palmer has written in How to Brew. Palmer is all about matching the RA to the SRM and your like don't even pay attention to that. Who should I believe?
 
Wow that is a very complicated spreadsheet. It looks like more trouble then it's worth.

But back to the question or RA/SRM. Your directly contradicting what John Palmer has written in How to Brew. Palmer is all about matching the RA to the SRM and your like don't even pay attention to that. Who should I believe?

Palmer seems to either have abandoned or is unwilling to defend the RA/SRM link.

It's also important to note that AJ isn't alone, Palmer is alone in being the only author (I am aware of) to ever take the position that RA and SRM should map to each other. Fix, Noonan, Miller etc don't.
 
In fairness, the online version of HTB is very out of date. I don't have the latest revision of HTB print either but I'd bet it's the same as far as water chem is concerned because they just did that whole series on water on Brewstrong early this year and he still maintained the same correlation between color and RA.
 
Wow that is a very complicated spreadsheet. It looks like more trouble then it's worth.

That's why I usually don't even mention it. Problem is that water chemistry is a complicated subject and while brewers probably don't need a spreadsheet that considers the departures from the chemistry of ideal dilute solutions I wanted something that was spot on. You can always round off to your hearts desire after you have the right answer.

But back to the question or RA/SRM. Your directly contradicting what John Palmer has written in How to Brew. Palmer is all about matching the RA to the SRM and your like don't even pay attention to that. Who should I believe?

I'm not really contradicting John. He has said that the SRM/RA thing is "nothing but a lot of handwaving". It has been the community of homebrewers that has elevated it to gospel. If I fault him at all it's for not having this caveat in huge red letters all over the spreadsheet.

You must, ultimately, decide for yourself whether you want to continue to subscribe to the SRM/RA philosophy or not. What I would hope would happen would be that you would come to the same conclusion as the original poster in this thread i.e. that something doesn't look right with it.
 
In fairness, the online version of HTB is very out of date. I don't have the latest revision of HTB print either but I'd bet it's the same as far as water chem is concerned because they just did that whole series on water on Brewstrong early this year and he still maintained the same correlation between color and RA.

Bobby I've seen your videos and I know you have some experience with the EZ calculator and the whole RA/SRM deal. In part 3 where you make water for a porter you recommend adding both Chalk and baking soda to increase the RA for the darker SRM. Given what you have read in this post would you do the same thing today? Where do you stand on this divide in water philosophy?
 
Here is Palmer's info. So I don't think he has abandoned it. http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html

Well, he must have held an opinion before he can abandon it.

AJ may have the correct interpretation though, Palmer was describing a general relationship that fails badly at the boundaries (stouts) and people repeated the info without noting that it was only a general relationship and the poor performance of the model at the boundaries (which Palmer acknowledged on the Brew Strong shows, saying that for very dark beers you don't need the alkalinity his model predicts).
 
You must, ultimately, decide for yourself whether you want to continue to subscribe to the SRM/RA philosophy or not. What I would hope would happen would be that you would come to the same conclusion as the original poster in this thread i.e. that something doesn't look right with it.

Yeah I have some decisions to make. I guess some experiments are in order.

In the meantime, I'd welcome other opinions and experiences from the Homebrew Talk Community members.

FYI: I am the OP ;)
 
Well, he must have held an opinion before he can abandon it.
I'm not sure if I follow what your saying :confused:

AJ may have the correct interpretation though, Palmer was describing a general relationship that fails badly at the boundaries (stouts) and people repeated the info without noting that it was only a general relationship and the poor performance of the model at the boundaries (which Palmer acknowledged on the Brew Strong shows, saying that for very dark beers you don't need the alkalinity his model predicts).
Sounds reasonable but that's not exactly what AJ wrote, is it?
 
Bobby I've seen your videos and I know you have some experience with the EZ calculator and the whole RA/SRM deal. In part 3 where you make water for a porter you recommend adding both Chalk and baking soda to increase the RA for the darker SRM. Given what you have read in this post would you do the same thing today? Where do you stand on this divide in water philosophy?

I'm not quite sure. I don't have a chemistry degree (I'm in Telecom of all things) and have been doing my best to weigh the materials presented by Palmer, Kai Troester, and anyone else willing to write on the topic. Everything in my water videos was based on Palmer's data which ended up in the EZ sheet.

However, even without knowing chemistry, I had reservations about adjusting water to an RA that syncs up to SRMs on the extreme end where I feel the acidity of dark malts is overestimated. In other words, setting up my water for an RA to match 40 SRM isn't going to happen. Anyone would look at that dixie cup full of chalk and know it shouldn't go in.

I haven't been able to brew much (very few darker beers) since I put those videos out so my personal experience is limited. I have since purchased the better colorpHast 4-7pH range strips to better watch the mash (frankly I can't deal with a meter right now).

My plan going forward is relatively unchanged except I will reserve RA- raising additions in the mash until after I measure a pH lower than 5.

With all due respect, I don't know AJD or where his data comes from and I likely wouldn't be able to fully understand it anyway. ;-) I'm thankful that he showed me that the Ward lab result for Sulfate was measured in SO4-S and not the same as what the spreadsheets want.
 
...(which Palmer acknowledged on the Brew Strong shows, saying that for very dark beers you don't need the alkalinity his model predicts).

I was going to mention this. He either gave an SRM or an RA where he said he would not worry about correcting above. I don't remeber the number though....
 
I was going to mention this. He either gave an SRM or an RA where he said he would not worry about correcting above. I don't remeber the number though....

I listened to this podcast a while back before I started using water adjustments. Sounds like I may need a re-listen.

Brew Strong is awesome!
 
I'm not sure if I follow what your saying :confused:

I'm saying that I agree that Palmer promulgated the RA maps to SRM theory in homebrewing literature, but that recently he has hedged more explicitly when discussing it.

Sounds reasonable but that's not exactly what AJ wrote, is it?

I think the gist is the same, it's a theoretical model proposed by Palmer that doesn't work particularly well for dark beers and homebrewers have adopted it and blindly assume it works everywhere.
 
With all due respect, I don't know AJD or where his data comes from .....

Yes, who is this guy anyway?

The "data set" is my brewing logs. I have been checking pH with a meter for years and so when I say you do not need to add any chalk to most beers to establish proper mash pH, including dark ones, I have measurements to back that statement up. In fact the opposite is true. You usually need to add acid. I've seen that said in so many words in a professional brewing text but of course I can't remember which one. The only time in years of brewing that I have ever had to add chalk to a mash was when I got overly enthusiastic with the acid first.

As for where the data John used to develop his model came from I have no idea. But I can give an example of the general technique I think he must have used which illustrates the idea and some of its pitfalls. At http://www.pbase.com/image/127869369 I've put picture of the Moody Baa bond rate plotted against the LIBOR (London Interbank Offering Rate) for the same period. There is definitely a correlation. The more interest the Brits charge the more we charge over here. But the correlation is not as strong as we might like. Historically you cannot look at the LIBOR and say what the Baa will be. With such a data set it is common to find the simplest model (a linear relationship) which best fits the data by minimizing the error between what the straight line predicts and what the actual data show. Graphically this means placing a straight edge through the data so that the dots appear to be about equally distributed on either side of the line. The straight line on the plot at the picture site is the best fit and it says the trend in Baa rate is such that the Baa is 0.332 times the LIBOR rate + 6.32%. Thus, if the LIBOR is 4%, the Baa would be distributed around 7.6%. But as the data show, when the LIBOR has been 4% the Baa has been as low as 6% and as high as 9%. LIBOR is not a particularly good predictor of Baa and the number, on the plot, r = 0.586 is a measure of how good (or in this case, bad) it is. r= 1 would mean that every data point would fall right on the line. r=0 means that there is no correlation between the two variables at all.

John has to have come up with a similar "scatter plot". How I don't know but he did mention in one post that he used a color model, rather than measured color data, for the SRM part. I suppose one could call breweries, ask them for a water report and a description of the beer they brew with it, calculate the color and make the plot that way and I suspect that this is what he may have done but can't confirm. However he did it it is plain that the data spread must resemble the Baa/LIBOR plot in it's dispersion. Yes, there is a relationship between color and SRM (just as there is between Baa and LIBOR) but it is not a strong enough one. r, the correlation coefficient isn't large enough. Beyond this it is clear that the slope of the regression (that's what the straight line is called) is way to high in the SRM/RA model. This suggests either that RA was badly miscalculated for dark beers, that SRM was badly underestimated for dark beers or that no dark beers were measured. Extrapolation outside the measured data interval can be done but it is done at your peril. You would take a huge risk in predicting the Baa from a 10% LIBOR rate, for example) because the model is not based on data in that range. Again, I don't know how the SRM vs RA regression was obtained (or even that it is linear).

I think I'm on pretty solid ground here. I have published papers in peer reviewed journals on RA and on beer color. More to the point is that other people are beginning to report findings consistent with what I've seen in my own brewing.
 
So I just wanted to point out....

With all due respect, I don't know AJD or where his data comes from and I likely wouldn't be able to fully understand it anyway. ;-)

I think Bobby was being very sarcastic.

AJ, your brewing knowledge is great and I have really enjoyed reading all your posts about RA and sulfate among other things. A lot of people know a lot about brewing, but most of the knowledge behind it is very re-hashed from other sources. It is refreshing to have people actually present data that they have collected and make conclusions that might change what is commonly accepted. It motivates me to try and find the time to do the same in my brewing.
 
As for where the data John used to develop his model came from I have no idea. But I can give an example of the general technique I think he must have used which illustrates the idea and some of its pitfalls. At http://www.pbase.com/image/127869369 I've put picture of the Moody Baa bond rate plotted against the LIBOR (London Interbank Offering Rate) for the same period. There is definitely a correlation. The more interest the Brits charge the more we charge over here. But the correlation is not as strong as we might like. Historically you cannot look at the LIBOR and say what the Baa will be. With such a data set it is common to find the simplest model (a linear relationship) which best fits the data by minimizing the error between what the straight line predicts and what the actual data show. Graphically this means placing a straight edge through the data so that the dots appear to be about equally distributed on either side of the line. The straight line on the plot at the picture site is the best fit and it says the trend in Baa rate is such that the Baa is 0.332 times the LIBOR rate + 6.32%. Thus, if the LIBOR is 4%, the Baa would be distributed around 7.6%. But as the data show, when the LIBOR has been 4% the Baa has been as low as 6% and as high as 9%. LIBOR is not a particularly good predictor of Baa and the number, on the plot, r = 0.586 is a measure of how good (or in this case, bad) it is. r= 1 would mean that every data point would fall right on the line. r=0 means that there is no correlation between the two variables at all.

I think if you subtracted observed credit spreads from the bond yields (eg fit LIBOR to treasuries) the fit would be much better. If only the f(SRM) = RA model were so easy to fix.

I remember the first time I made a stout with my RA=12 water by doughing in and intending to add chalk until the pH was within range as per my shiny new Hanna meter.

That was a pretty quick exercise.

That stout was the best dark beer I had ever made to that point, and the first with no chalk.
 
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