Lacto and DMS

So I am trying a fast sour method of Berliner Weisse. I mashed around 148 and boiled for 15 minutes, cooled to around 115 and pitched some WLP677.

After a day I got a ton of DMS. There's a hint of sourness under it, so I'm willing to salvage if something works to save it.

I was thinking since I have not pitched yeast yet, could I reboil for 60 minutes to stop the Lacto and drive off the dms and then chill and pitch some yeast to finish it off?

I think that would be your best bet. A full length boil should drive off DMS.

If that works I will be a happy camper! I think I will try this tonight, so I will let you know how it goes. Thanks!

Anyone know the boiling point of lactic acid? You might just boil off all your souring acid as well...

Jcruse said:

Anyone know the boiling point of lactic acid? You might just boil off all your souring acid as well...

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He'll be fine. I routinely boil the wort from my sour mashes. I'll admit that I haven't checked the pH post-boil, only post-mash, and they maintain plenty of sourness.

I tried the short boil on a Berliner once, and also got a load of DMS as well. Pitching other bugs (various Gueuze dregs) and letting it go two years eventually scrubbed it out (or at least no longer noticeable behind the funk and lactic acid). But from that point on, I always do a full length boil.

Did around a 70 minute boil. Added 1lb of DME and some hops the last few minutes. Under all that the DMS definitely lessened. The sample for Gravity I tried was interesting and sour enough to go for it. I pitched German ale yeast, so we'll see how it turns out. I agree. Full boil all the time!

You seem to do a lot of sours and such. What have you found to be the best way to sour? I like the fast sour method, just haven't heard many examples getting a lot of sour from it.

You can get a potent sour from a sour mash or kettle souring, but the layers of complexity come from age. Good for a Berliner, not so much for a Lambic.

Qhrumphf said:

You can get a potent sour from a sour mash or kettle souring, but the layers of complexity come from age. Good for a Berliner, not so much for a Lambic.

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How long do you usually leave the mash or kettle? Temp range from 90-120?

Just wondering if the 15 minute boil was a part of the "quick method"?

GundyGang1 said:

How long do you usually leave the mash or kettle? Temp range from 90-120?

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I've done sour mashes anywhere from 2 to 4 days. Two is noticeably but moderately sour. 4 is pretty intensely sour. 3 somewhere in between. I keep it around 110.

The "fast" aspect is introducing the Lacto first and letting it have full force on the wort before you introduce the yeast, so it only takes a few days to sour up. The short boil helps too, but givin my experience I will not be doing a short boil again.

Qhrumphf said:

I've done sour mashes anywhere from 2 to 4 days. Two is noticeably but moderately sour. 4 is pretty intensely sour. 3 somewhere in between. I keep it around 110.

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I'd like to try a sour mash, but how do you keep it warm? Trying to figure the best way to do it... What's your method?

GundyGang1 said:

I'd like to try a sour mash, but how do you keep it warm? Trying to figure the best way to do it... What's your method?

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I start with a normal single infusion mash (say 152 for 60 mins). After that, i pop in an immersion chiller, chill it to 115 or so, drop the pH to <4.5 with lactic acid (this inhibits enteric bacteria and makes for a cleaner more reliable product), toss in a half pound or so (basically a large handful) of crushed pilsner malt, and then cover it with saran wrap, and drop a tiny piece of dry ice on top. I then check the temp and pH every 6-8 hours. If it drops below 105 I boil some water for 10 mins and add enough boiling water to bring it back to 110-115. And every time it's opened, cover with saran wrap amd more dry ice. If you keg and have the ability to purge with CO2, you may not need the dry ice. Then once it's where I want (usually 3-3.5 pH, but I go by taste more than the number), lauter, sparge, and boil.

A buddy does his sour mashes in a bucket fermenter with an airlock and a fermwrap. I haven't tried that but it seems like a good plan.

The lacto species used has a pretty big impact, too. If you can get a culture with l. plantarum, you can cool to 90°F, pitch your culture, and let it free fall. It does best at lower temperatures. 12-24 hours later, assuming no hops, pH will be in the mid to low 3's.

What does the dry ice do?

Wlp677 has a low range, has anyone had success souring around 70 with it?

GundyGang1 said:

What does the dry ice do?

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A little dry ice will keep it blanketed in CO2, as oxygen is not good. Inhibits the lacto and allows stuff you don't want growing.

GundyGang1 said:

Wlp677 has a low range, has anyone had success souring around 70 with it?

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677 is delbrueckii, and doesn't really work that great at any temperature.

Follow up: I boiled the Lacto/DMesS wort after 2-3 days and added 1lb of wheat DME. Dms was slightly there in the aroma, but the boil helped a lot. Fermented with German Ale yeast for a while. Bottled with 2.8 vol. sugar. Tried one yester day and it actually tastes good! The dms is there, but plays well with the wheat and sour. Not a lot of sourness, but enough to prickle your tongue. Turned out well!!!

Qhrumphf said:

He'll be fine. I routinely boil the wort from my sour mashes. I'll admit that I haven't checked the pH post-boil, only post-mash, and they maintain plenty of sourness.

I tried the short boil on a Berliner once, and also got a load of DMS as well. Pitching other bugs (various Gueuze dregs) and letting it go two years eventually scrubbed it out (or at least no longer noticeable behind the funk and lactic acid). But from that point on, I always do a full length boil.

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lactic acid boils around 250°F

fantomlord said:

lactic acid boils around 250°F

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Good to know.

Like i said, no issue boiling after a sour mash.