Electric Rig Wiring help needed.. any E.E.'s out there?

I am finally at a point where I can wire up my electric rig and start doing batches larger than 2.5 gallons.

Here is what I need: below is a "FRAME" for a wiring diagram for my system. I am a VISUAL learner, so if someone with more knowledge than myself could "FILL IN" the frame for me it would be great. Yes, I am looking for "electric by numbers".

Here is a brief rundown/description of what you see below and what I want/need:

Thursday morning I am getting my two pole 50amp gfci breaker installed. It will be run to a 4 wire range receptacle.

The brain of the system is a BCS-460.

I have a 6' 4-pole 6AWG range cord that I will run from the 50amp receptacle into my control box- a salvaged PC tower that has been gutted. The tower is a metal tower with a plastic covering.

From the 4 wire range cord I have 4 distribution blocks.

From here is where the help is really needed.

I have three 5500w/240v elements that will each yield 4662w at 220v. A max of two will ever be run concurrently. I have three 3-pole 10' 10AWG dryer range cords and three 3 pole dryer receptacles for these.

I have a 40a SSR as shown below for each element. I also have three DPDT 30a switches that I want to be wired such that the switch in position 1 will be a manual "ON", then off, and Position 2 will be an "auto" controlled by the BCS-460.

This leaves me with 3 outputs remaining on the BCS.

For these I have three 110v 15amp receptacles that will control a pump, a stirrer, and an "open" slot during brewing. I have a bunch of 12 gauge wire that I will run for these-- overkill but I already had it left over.

I have a 25a SSR as shown below for each receptacle. I also have a DPDT 10a switch for each outlet that I want to be wired such that the switch in position 1 will be a manual "ON", then off, and Position 2 will be an "auto" controlled by the BCS-460.

So again, if someone could, using the appropriate colored "wires" complete my diagram it would be greatly appreciated.

Additionally there is a pic of the 30a DPDT switch that I have. I need a clue on how to specifically wire it (colored wires to which terminals) to achieve what I listed above.

Lastly, you will see a fourth 15a 110v receptacle within a pink box. The BCS will be multi-purpose; when not in brew mode it will be controlling 4 different fermentation/serving temps. Can I hook the power and everything up to this receptacle as well, and after brewing merely disconnect one the heater elements from the BCS output, and plug in the fourth 110 receptacle wiring? If so, what would that look like in the diagram below.

I know I am asking for A LOT but I know there are folks on here that enjoy doing this, are knowledgeable enough to do this, and I hope that someone wouldn't mind helping out a fellow brewer.

Thanks in advance! A sampler of homebrew from my first brew on this rig to the person that can get this together correctly for me!



http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2699/4052153303_111756174b_b.jpg



EDIT: I have a higher res version I can email to people if needed!

Am I asking too much, or does anyone just not really know?

It'll take me a day or two to get it drawn up and scanned in, but I'll do it.

There aren't that many using the BCS-460. If you had thrown up some Auber PIDs I bet this would have been different.

Besides, my feeling is that if you can't fill in any of that diagram you shouldn't be doing this.

Plan9 said:

It'll take me a day or two to get it drawn up and scanned in, but I'll do it.

Click to expand...

Plan9, thanks so much, it is appreciated!


Passedpawn, I can appreciate your point of view, but by seeing it visually I will be able to process the written research I have consumed. That is how I learn.

Will it also accomplish the task of getting my rig running? Yes!

Well, with that kind of motivation I am sure you will succeed. Good luck.

Not totally sure but I think the 50 amp receptacle won't cut it. Each element will run a bit over 21 amps at 220v, that's 42 amps before any of your 110v usage. Goes well over a safe 80% rule.
Also I would suggest finding a way to totally ensure that all three elements can't fire at once. I wouldn't trust the BCS 100% for that (but that's just me). In my system 2 similar elements are wired to a single 30 amp circuit and I have a switch wired in that will select which element has power available.

Btw your elements' ssr's are mis-labeled 25 amp in your diagram, wouldn't be a difficult fix for anyone though I'm sure.

Congratulations in advance on a potentially beautiful system!

Budzu, good catch on the amperage. I have seen several statements that the %80 rule is meant for a continuous duty application, and since these will be fired for 90-120 minutes it should not be an issue.

That said though, these will actually be run at full wattage for much shorter periods of time-- based upon most other people's systems the element is only fired on for 75% of a duty cycle.

Additionally, the BCS will allow me to essentially run the elements at "x" power so I can essentially make them a 4500w element which does fall under the 80% threshold.

As for a BCS override, that is what the switches shown in the diagram are for... to have a manual control over the elements. They can be BCS controled, off, or manually on. So if I choose, with these switches, I can switch from BCS to off, and the off command takes priority.

I will correct the 25a SSR designation in the diagram, thanks for that catch!

Thanks for all the comments, ideas and words of advice-- I do appreciate them.

Will you need two SSR's for the "Hot" legs of the 220 volt Elements? I would think so, and they would be wired together.


Edit--On second thought, there are probably 220 volt SSR's that would have contacts to switch both hot legs of a 220v circuit. That would be a better way to go. My first suggestion would also work but not be as "Clean"

I also think you will need a relay for the 3 position switch.

I agree that a 50A GFCI should be enough IF you prevent all three elements from firing at once. You can do that by adding another DPDT switch that will control the input of the SSRs for two elements. That will make it a physical impossibility for both of the elements on that switch to fire at once.

I have a 25a SSR as shown below for each receptacle. I also have a DPDT 10a switch for each outlet that I want to be wired such that the switch in position 1 will be a manual "ON", then off, and Position 2 will be an "auto" controlled by the BCS-460.

Click to expand...

Does your DPDT switch have 'center-off' position?

Yes, the DPDT has a "center-off" position...

RonRock said:

Will you need two SSR's for the "Hot" legs of the 220 volt Elements? I would think so, and they would be wired together.


Edit--On second thought, there are probably 220 volt SSR's that would have contacts to switch both hot legs of a 220v circuit. That would be a better way to go. My first suggestion would also work but not be as "Clean"

I also think you will need a relay for the 3 position switch.

Click to expand...

RonRock, my understanding is that, yes, ideally a 220 volt or two 110v SSR's would be used for the elements. However, every rig on here I have seen is simply switching one hot leg with a 110v SSR. This means that there is still one leg hot at all times, but that is why I am (and others have done) putting a toggle switch in to control both legs of the element... that way I can truly turn OFF ALL power to the element-- both legs. However the SSR will control the one leg while in BCS mode.

cyberbackpacker said:

Yes, the DPDT has a "center-off" position...

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OK, good. That's not always the case.

The 110v recepticles would not need a relay. I'm not an EE but if it was me I'd want a relay in the 220v for safety.

I don't see the need for a second SSR for the 240V line (especially if you have DPDT shutoff). The line will remain hot when the SSR isn't switched, but the main source for concern is a ground fault, which would be picked up by the GFI.

Also, i agree on the 110V receptacles. The SSR is just a redundant switching mechanism. Wire the outlets directly through the toggle switch.

With one leg "Hot" all of the time would the element be running at 1/2 power whenever the system is powered up? Maybe not I'm not 100% sure with 220v. But I have wired 220v circuits and they always have a Double Pole Single Throw Circuit Breaker. When tripped shuts off all power to said circuit. The way I think about it the Breaker is basically a switch. Maybe not needed but surely a safe way to go.

If in fact the elements are running at 1/2 power on 1 hot leg that will take a bite out of your available Amperage. Like I said I may be wrong on that.

RonRock said:

With one leg "Hot" all of the time would the element be running at 1/2 power whenever the system is powered up? Maybe not I'm not 100% sure with 220v. But I have wired 220v circuits and they always have a Double Pole Single Throw Circuit Breaker. When tripped shuts off all power to said circuit. The way I think about it the Breaker is basically a switch. Maybe not needed but surely a safe way to go.

If in fact the elements are running at 1/2 power on 1 hot leg that will take a bite out of your available Amperage. Like I said I may be wrong on that.

Click to expand...

No, as soon as you switch off one leg, the 240V circuit is open.

OK, I thought that may be so. I'll go back to the cheap seats now.

RonRock said:

With one leg "Hot" all of the time would the element be running at 1/2 power whenever the system is powered up? Maybe not I'm not 100% sure with 220v. But I have wired 220v circuits and they always have a Double Pole Single Throw Circuit Breaker. When tripped shuts off all power to said circuit. The way I think about it the Breaker is basically a switch. Maybe not needed but surely a safe way to go.

If in fact the elements are running at 1/2 power on 1 hot leg that will take a bite out of your available Amperage. Like I said I may be wrong on that.

Click to expand...

The neutral is not connected to the element, only the two hot wires. Thus when one is opened, current = 0. Of course one side still is at 120VAC relative to neutral/gnd.

passedpawn said:

The neutral is not connected to the element, only the two hot wires. Thus when one is opened, current = 0. Of course one side still is at 120VAC relative to neutral/gnd.

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technically, everything on the downstream side of the SSR is at 120VAC. If there was a fault to ground somewhere on the switched leg between the SSR and the heating element, you could have current flowing through the element.

I have talked about this before, Switching one leg of 240v leaves the entire circuit energized the entire time(even if the circuit is open, it is still energized). This is a huge Code violation, NEC and UL.
Also, because you are using multiple receptacles, elements and current ratings, you are going to have to use fusses to protect all the different ratings.

I just had a friend look up the UL code for heaters, and unless they have integrated Thermal protection they will each need their own set of fuses.

I'm sure there will be the usual flurry of Anti-code replies. but it still doesn't change the fact its wrong and unsafe.

Since you can get a dual SSR for < $30 (ebay), I don't know why one wouldn't open both legs. I guess that is another $10 down the hobbyhole, but, meh, at this point 'tis but a drop in the ocean.

Lazybean, by all means point me to the type of fuses and fuse holders I can use to accomplish this.

Passedpawn, have a link to dual 40a SSR's?

Thanks everyone for the discussion... it is helpful.

Hey cyber, did you do a search? I am not going to google this for you.

Parsing out instructions. Hmmm. I expect to see a Gantt chart with my name on it any time now.

OK, done ranting.

Also, can someone explain to me about why I do not need SSR's to control the 110v receptacles? I am not arguing, I truly want to understand.

And if that is the case, why would I not then need an SSR for the receptacle that the heater elements are being plugged into?

Again, just trying to understand the logic.


However, with that said, if indeed the SSR's for the 110v are redundant and I do not need them, but I do need SSR's for the 240v elements, I would think I could return the 25a SSR's and exchange them for three more single 40a SSR's and then have two SSR's for each heater element, and both legs on each element would be switched/isolated on/off.

Panel-Mount Fuse Blocks for 13/32" Dia. Fuses you can use those for up to 30amps, and they are accessible without having to open the enclosure.

I should have stuck to my guns.

Passedpawn, yes I have done lots of research in advance of this. I have read countless threads on here, brewtroller, embeddedcontrolconcepts, northernbrewer, brewboard, aussiehomebrewer, etc. I have been patiently and diligently acquiring parts needed to do this as I reached a consensus idea of how to proceed based off of this research and how others have done it before me. All the parts in the diagram are parts I already have purchases and have in my possession ready to use.

In regards to a dual SSR I have yet to run across anyone running one but I do admit it is possible I may have missed someone. I have seen the discussion about switching only one leg versus two, and based on others experience I had yet to see anyone go this direction. Part of this was because several pointed out the fact that a single SSR can be had for < $20 but duals were 5x that amount (in my research).

That said, if you do not want to offer assistance, that is fine and I understand. No Gantt Chart nor project manager position for you, I get it. But from you posting information in this thread there is an implicit (and explicit) value of willingness to assist on your part.

I specifically asked if you had a link because I in my research/parts acquistion I searched for months looking for dual SSR's and have yet seen any at the price point you mention. That is why I asked, because it seemed from your post of "you can get a dual SSR for < $30 (ebay)" that you had specific knowledge of some at this price point.

All this said, again I truly am trying to gain knowledge, not just the end product. However, I know how I acquire information, and have tried to ask for it as clearly as possible.

For those willing to help, it truly is appreciated. I enjoy helping sharing my knowledge of things with fellow brewers who can use it, and I am just trying to receive in kind.

/rant.

Thanks all... keep the help coming!

lazybean said:

Panel-Mount Fuse Blocks for 13/32" Dia. Fuses you can use those for up to 30amps, and they are accessible without having to open the enclosure.

Click to expand...

Lazybean, thank you! My electrical knowledge prior to this has been in 12V ICE (in car entertainment), but this 120/240 I have not had a chance to wrap my head around as of yet.

With my 12vdc knowledge though, my current level of understanding is that for these fuse holders, I would have one for each element, correct? Hot 1 and Hot 2 would run out of their distribution blocks, into the fuse block, and then on to the rest of the wiring for that element (ssr, DPDT) correct? EDIT: Oh, and these would be ok to mount in my PC Tower/Control Panel? Would I need to have stand-offs or anything in the case?

EDIT 2: Nevermind on this one! I misread mcmaster!

Thanks again, truly!

cyberbackpacker said:

Also, can someone explain to me about why I do not need SSR's to control the 110v receptacles? I am not arguing, I truly want to understand.

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I missed the comment that said you don't need them. If you want the BCS-460 to control the 110v receptacles, then you need an SSR or a mechanical relay. Both of them are switches operated by electricity. Make sense? Each have their pros and cons. If you have a short cycle time, SSR is the way to go. It sounds like a relay would work for your chamber heaters, pump, etc since your cycle time will be minutes, not fractions of a second.

However, with that said, if indeed the SSR's for the 110v are redundant and I do not need them, but I do need SSR's for the 240v elements, I would think I could return the 25a SSR's and exchange them for three more single 40a SSR's and then have two SSR's for each heater element, and both legs on each element would be switched/isolated on/off.

Click to expand...

Keep the 40a SSR on one leg of your 240v. Don't do a 25a on each leg. I don't think it works that way.


It seems like you've gotten a good grasp on things so far. If you don't have one already, buy a muli-meter and learn how to use it. Play around with your switches and see where there is continuity between contacts with the switch in different positions. That may help your understanding of all of this.
[actually, I just saw your last post, and maybe you already know this stuff]

Good Luck

kevin9167, so basically the receptacle is a mechanical switch, which then negates the need for the SSR? And yes, it would make sense that for pumps, heaters, etc. that a mechanical switch should suffice due to longer duty cycles.

As for the 40a SSR on the elements, what I was proposing was to exchange my 25a SSR's since I will be using a mechanical relay instead (the receptacles). I would exchange the 25a SSR's for three 40a SSR's. Then run two 40a SSR's for each element... in essence a "dual" ssr.

Savvy?

One question I have is, how are you heating your mash?
Is that element going in the grain, or is it a RIMs setup?

Either way that seems like a big element. Our rig uses a 5500w 240v for the HLT, a 5500w 240v for the boil, and a 1200w 120v for the rims.
These are on a 50amp circuit, as we never have the HLT and the Boil on at the same time.

cyberbackpacker said:

kevin9167, so basically the receptacle is a mechanical switch, which then negates the need for the SSR? And yes, it would make sense that for pumps, heaters, etc. that a mechanical switch should suffice due to longer duty cycles.

Savvy?

Click to expand...

You DO need SSRs for the 120v receptacles. The BCS is outputting 5vdc it will not turn on the 120v receptacles.

Plan9 said:

You DO need SSRs for the 120v receptacles. The BCS is outputting 5vdc it will not turn on the 120v receptacles.

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Right!!! That is why I am "talking" this out here... thanks for catching that!

Plan9 said:

One question I have is, how are you heating your mash?
Is that element going in the grain, or is it a RIMs setup?

Either way that seems like a big element. Our rig uses a 5500w 240v for the HLT, a 5500w 240v for the boil, and a 1200w 120v for the rims.
These are on a 50amp circuit, as we never have the HLT and the Boil on at the same time.

Click to expand...

I was wondering when someone was going to ask that!

The element will act as a "direct fire" element. The inspiration comes from here: http://www.speidel-getraenkebehaelter.de/braumeister.htm

After doing extensive research on the braumeister and RIMS type systems, and after weighing all of the information out there, I felt comfortable going this route with my setup. I was not going to reveal too much until I had it fully implemented and tested, but alas, someone "caught" me!

I have taken into account any issues that might arise with this setup, I think! I concede I may run into some issues at first, but with the physical setup of the MLT as well as the power/capabilities of the BCS I believe that ultimately I will be able to dial-in the "direct fired heater element MLT" to work just as I want/need it.

This is my plan. I have built the e-keggles (I've been switching them manually!).

I have bought the SSRs ($28), but haven't pulled the trigger on the PID. Maybe tonight. I want to use just one PID since I can't run more than one element at a time anyway (current limited).

Passedpawn, thank you for that! I look forward to being able to pore over it a bit more in depth tonight when I have the time to really focus on it!

It is hard to read the SSR model#, do you happen to have the crydom SSR model number on those?

cyberbackpacker said:

It is hard to read the SSR model#, do you happen to have the crydom SSR model number on those?

Click to expand...

D2425D. Dual 25A (total of 50A continuous if heatsinked well; see the derating curves in datasheet). Like I said, they are available on Ebay for $28.

D2440D (I think) for 40A model. The last "D" indicates dual.

FYI, first SSR switches/pulses both legs of the AC at the same time, per the PID's output. Second SSR selects the heater and associated thermistor. Might fail miserably, but I'll be giving it a shot within the next week.

EE != electrician

double post