lager issues

i've only done 2 lagers and the first one (helles), while decent, still had some off flavors (slight alcohol heat/smell, some diacetyl and maybe even a little DMS). fast forward to the second lager, a dortmunder (about 6 weeks ago), and i had everything in check: made a huge stepped up starter (wy 2206), chilled the wort to a few degrees below pitching temps, and had what appeared to be a fast starting and healthy fermentation. i waited until fermentation was winding down and bumped it up for a d-rest, allowed the yeast to drop for a few extra days then kegged and lagered it (about 4 wks). the crappy part is that is really isn't very good at all. big time diacetyl in it and just not very tasty at all.

the yeast i used was an old smack pack, but the starter and fermentation seemed fine, so i doubt that was the problem... i don't know, i thought i had all my ducks in a row for this one and was really expecting good things from it. maybe i should try a different yeast strain? any ideas or suggestions on my process would greatly appreciated from those of you who have had good luck with lagers.

edit: the one thing i was also curious about is if anyone has tried the method where you let the trub (i just can't eliminate getting some in my fermenter) settle and then rack the wort into a carboy/pitch the yeast. i'm considering not wasting a ton of ice next time and getting it down to around 60 and setting it in the fermentation fridge for 12-24 hours, racking it off the trub and then pitching the yeast... anyone had good success with this?

android said:

maybe i should try a different yeast strain?

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Might as well. I had mixed results with 34/70 (usually diacetyl), but 2308 has been rock solid for me.

I'll bet you can improve your Dort by kraeusening it. Warm it up, vent it, and throw in a liter of fermenting beer, and wait two weeks. Doesn't matter the type of beer, it can be a starter, you just want something to eat all the butter.

2 things come to mind...

-Racking to lagering... if oxygen is introduced at this time (splashing or turbulent transfer), diacetyl can develop during lagering

-The yeast that settled out during lagering is causing an off-flavor and once the yeast is cleared out from the bottom of your keg (2-3 pints), the beer will taste fine... For this one, I recently had 2 kegs of lager (German Pils- 10 gal batch) and when I tapped the 2nd keg, I could have sworn it had diacetyl on the first couple pints (turbid from yeast). Once the yeast got out and the beer was clear, it tasted great.

2308 was the one i used first for my helles. i definitely liked that beer better. i think what i might do is try the 2042, which will give me the cleaner, crisper finish i'm looking for with my lagers... maybe the full bodied, malty yeast was my problem from the start. interesting idea with the krausening... might give that a shot.

You don't add the whole starter do you? You should really let it ferment out then stick it in the fridge (I actually put it in the freezer for a bit) for a cold crash. Then decant off almost all of the liquid and just pour the sludge (yeast) into the wort. Maybe you already do that.

Also, what is you fermentation temp? Are you trusting your temperature controller or do you keep a thermometer in you fridge to make sure?

I let my lagers sit in the fermentation chamber at fermentation temp overnight before adding the yeast.

android said:

edit: the one thing i was also curious about is if anyone has tried the method where you let the trub (i just can't eliminate getting some in my fermenter) settle and then rack the wort into a carboy/pitch the yeast. i'm considering not wasting a ton of ice next time and getting it down to around 60 and setting it in the fermentation fridge for 12-24 hours, racking it off the trub and then pitching the yeast... anyone had good success with this?

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That is essentially how I do my lagers. I leave the wort in the kettle and put it in my fermentation fridge overnight to chill it to 44F. I then rack off the crystal clear, chilled wort into my 6g better bottle aerate and pitch my yeast. I then increase the temperature up from 44f to 50f over the next 48 hours, this is a variation on the Narziss fermentation which results in a very clean lager without the need for a D-rest. By that time the krausen has formed and I let it ferment 10-14 days at 50f. Once fermentation is done I crash it down to ~ 35f, add gelatin and leave it for 3 days to clear before racking to a corny and then lagering it either in my crawl space or in my keezer if there is room.

I am also a fan of the 2308, it is essentially the only lager yeast I am using now.

GT

yeah, i've been decanting off the starter wort. interesting idea about the bottom of the keg having more diacetyl. i haven't had many pints off it yet, maybe i'll pull off a liter or so and see how it tastes after that. and i've been fermenting at 48 deg, i have multiple temperature monitors in the fridge, so i know it's accurate. i also think i was using a new autosiphon that there was definitely an air leak in somewhere. i don't know where from, but there were bubbles coming through the tube the whole friggin time. i guess it could have been CO2 coming out of suspension, but it sure seemed like introduced air... thanks for the suggestions.

I used to have the same experience with my lagers until I tried dry yeast. I get the best results using 2 packs of saflager, most recently i ordered one called "weihenstephan lager" online from them and it dominates. When I get slight off-flavors I swirl the carboy in the 2ndary and wait a week, then it's gone. No need even for a D-rest. I think your problems are coming from unhappy yeast somewhere in the process.

IME lagering only helps with slight off-flavors, it pulls the yeasts' already mellow flavor even further out of the beer and they only take some of the yuckies with them. If the beer tastes pretty funky after primary, it'll probably still be off after 4 weeks of sitting around. Hope that helps!

mensmachine, i think you nailed it. i pulled off a half liter or so today, dumped it and then tried the following sample and it actually tasted way better than before. it's still got a little diacetyl, or maybe it's the malty nature of this yeast, i'm not sure. regardless, it tastes a lot better now.

android said:

mensmachine, i think you nailed it. i pulled off a half liter or so today, dumped it and then tried the following sample and it actually tasted way better than before. it's still got a little diacetyl, or maybe it's the malty nature of this yeast, i'm not sure. regardless, it tastes a lot better now.

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Glad to hear it's getting better. When that happened to me, I knew I didn't have a turbulent transfer, so I thought, "damn, this keg is infected!" It tasted a lot like what diacetyl is supposed to taste like. Whether or not it was actually diacetyl, I don't know. But I know it was the yeast that made it taste that way because as soon as it cleared up it was fine.

I guess there's something to be said for lagering in a separate vessel than serving, but I'll continue to do it this way... transferring the beer another time doesn't fit my life schedule right now!