A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

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ajdelange said:
See #1037. Add manganese and silica to that list.
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Thanks -- I sent him the list. Hopefully I'll see some good numbers soon! Though I don't have high hopes because I've found my tap water to be insufficient for brewing as-is. Hopefully the report and sharing that information on HBT will help me figure out additions to make it better for brewing.
 
Questions on a water profile for a Blonde.

I have very soft water, so I was just going to do roughly the baseline here (tailored in Bru'nWater). But I'm wondering if I should add a little Gypsum, since it'll be a somewhat hoppy Blonde. I know that's all subjective taste but I'd appreciate any input. It won't be a bitter blonde, low 20 IBUs, but it'll have some good knockout additions that I'd like to not come out muddled.

I'll definitely do a glass addition blind taste test to develop my own feelings after this, but for this one I'm not sure where to start.
 
FWIW, that shown in #1037 is the Ward Labs brewer's water analysis. W-5A, from memory.

I asked our municipal water department for a complete water test and they told me they don't test for all that mineral stuff. Said they only test for toxins, coliform, chlorine level, etc. That was asking directly at the treatment plant, not some stuffed shirt at City Hall.
 
Same here. I was a bit surprised that they had very little concern about what was in the product they are selling. I imagine they figure they will only measure what they have control over and what might be a safety issue.

Turns out our water is so "boring" that there is very little of anything to report.

Which makes it a clean slate for brewing!

Tom
 
For something like an IPA the guidelines say yes, use gypsum and calcium chloride. I'd be inclined to start with half a tsp of each rather than a tsp (per 5 gal treated).

These salts should be added to the water before mashing.
 
ajdelange said:
For something like an IPA the guidelines say yes, use gypsum and calcium chloride. I'd be inclined to start with half a tsp of each rather than a tsp (per 5 gal treated).

These salts should be added to the water before mashing.
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I believe that some of the earlier posts said that an IPA was considered part of the "For very minerally beers" which says Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.

Is an IPA not considered a minerally beer? I am brewing an IPA soon too so I'm curious which guideline to follow.
 
Yes, it is but to my way of thinking 5 grams each is simply too much salt though I recognize that lots of people like that much which is why the Primer says 5 grams of each. Many people find, however, that they like much less. It is incumbent on each brewer to experiment with addition levels to find the one that gives him the beers he prefers.
 
I think it'd be a good idea if there was a thread of personal mineral content preferences for styles that people could post in. It'd probably save AJ and Mabrun some headache on repeating the same things over an over, and it'd reduce the amount of people looking up city profiles. Or maybe that's just further handholding for us noobs, but it's a thought.
 
I believe I have a pretty decent tap water profile, as it is somewhat soft:

Ca - 9
Mg - 3
Na - 34
SO4 - 42
CaCl - 20
HCO3 - 32
TA (CaCO3) - 26

I realize the guidelines say if any of the ions are above 20, those guidelines don't apply. Having said that, I love the simplicity of using "rules of thumb" vs a bunch of calculations each time I brew. I will say that if I am going to use RO, I"m going to use 100% RO or none at all. Being as cheap as it is, if I make the effort to go get it at the store, i'm not going to fuss with blending it.

So my questions are:
A) Would my tap water be workable to just use as a base for the guidelines at the beginning of the thread, or is it just too far out of bounds because of the Na, SO4 and HCO3 for that? Again, I realize they are above 20, but I thought maybe they lie within the "grace" range if there is such a thing with this.
B) Would this water be "good" for a particular beer style unaltered? My thought was maybe like pils or pale ales, but may need more Ca tho. Thoughts?

I'll add that I *do* have a pH meter and I don't just add lactic acid or sauermalz willy nilly. I typically use bru'n water and add half the lactic acid it calls for and then adjust from there based on my pH readings. many times I end up needing only about 2/3 of what it calls for. That's worked well so far.

Thanks guys!
 
rzwahr said:
Having said that, I love the simplicity of using "rules of thumb" vs a bunch of calculations each time I brew. I will say that if I am going to use RO, I"m going to use 100% RO or none at all.
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Rules of thumb apply to straight RO as well as RO blends.

Being as cheap as it is, if I make the effort to go get it at the store, i'm not going to fuss with blending it. Using straight RO is clearly the simplest thing to do and the most robust as the seasonal (etc.) change in RO water is very small.

rzwahr said:
So my questions are:
A) Would my tap water be workable to just use as a base for the guidelines at the beginning of the thread, or is it just too far out of bounds because of the Na, SO4 and HCO3 for that? Again, I realize they are above 20, but I thought maybe they lie within the "grace" range if there is such a thing with this.
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It should be clear that any recommendations in which the salts are specified in terms of teaspoonfuls are quite approximate. As such you can certainly use the recommendations with your water perhaps pulling back on the gypsum a bit as the water itself contains quite a bit.


rzwahr said:
B) Would this water be "good" for a particular beer style unaltered? My thought was maybe like pils or pale ales, but may need more Ca tho. Thoughts?
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Could be good for a Pils or Pale ale though it is high in sulfate for the former and low in calcium for the latter. Certain styles of lagers (including Pils) are OK for that level of sulfate and low calcium is also a cornerstone of those beers. You can always knock sulfate down with a partial dilution with RO. You certainly should be able to brew a decent ale with this water without calcium supplementation though that's easy enough to do too.
 
So, if I understand the first post correctly, I start can start off with 5 gallons of RO as a base body of brewing water. Since, I plan to brew a Heady Topper clone, adding a level teaspoon of calcium chloride to the mash water (before dough-in) will get me going in the right direction to learn more about what I want from my water. It'll be a base. A place to start.

Then the next batch of IPA, in addition to the teaspoon of calcium chloride, add a teaspoon of gypsum to the mash water (before dough-in) to learn how the taste evolved from a single teaspoon of calcium chloride versus how it tastes using a teaspoon of calcium chloride and a teaspoon of gypsum. As suggested here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=2582679&postcount=49

Is there a base foundation for IIPA's to build upon in this massive thread?

Can someone confirm or deny my thinking is correct, and I understood the premise of the first post correctly.

Thanks!
 
roncruiser said:
So, if I understand the first post correctly, I start can start off with 5 gallons of RO as a base body of brewing water. Since, I plan to brew a Heady Topper clone, adding a level teaspoon of calcium chloride to the mash water (before dough-in) will get me going in the right direction to learn more about what I want from my water. It'll be a base. A place to start.
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Yes. Some will argue that you should start with a half tsp each of CaCl2 and CsSO4, others that it should be a tsp of CaSO4. Any of the above will really do.

roncruiser said:
Then the next batch of IPA, in addition to the teaspoon of calcium chloride, add a teaspoon of gypsum to the mash water (before dough-in) to learn how the taste evolved from a single teaspoon of calcium chloride versus how it tastes using a teaspoon of calcium chloride and a teaspoon of gypsum.
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Even before the next brew you should be tasting the first one with additions of salts e.g. gypsum if you started with only CaCl2. Doing the additions to beer will give you some idea if gypsum will enhance the flavor profile of this beer. If it does then yes, add it to the mash on the next batch.
 
ajdelange said:
Even before the next brew you should be tasting the first one with additions of salts e.g. gypsum if you started with only CaCl2. Doing the additions to beer will give you some idea if gypsum will enhance the flavor profile of this beer. If it does then yes, add it to the mash on the next batch.
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Help me understand further... please. Are you suggesting adding gypsum directly to a pint of beer and tasting? I believe I understood you correctly.

Thanks again!
 
roncruiser said:
Help me understand further... please. Are you suggesting adding gypsum directly to a pint of beer and tasting? I believe I understood you correctly.

Thanks again!
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Yes. Ideally, if you use a very fine scale, you can measure out an amount of gypsum which would be comparable to the amount to add per gallon.
 
Yooper said:
The following recommendations apply to “soft” water. Here we will define soft as meaning RO or distilled water or any water whose lab report indicates alkalinity less than 35 (ppm as CaCO3 – all other numbers to follow mg/L)
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My water local water report gives "hardness" in CaCO3 mg/L. Anyone know how to convert 120-150 mg/L to ppm?
 
That hardness value may be composed of both calcium and magnesium hardness. It may be impossible to reliably convert to a calcium or magnesium concentration unless it was reported as calcium hardness or magnesium hardness.
 
mgr_stl said:
My water local water report gives "hardness" in CaCO3 mg/L. Anyone know how to convert 120-150 mg/L to ppm?
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No problem. One mg in 1 L is, for a dilute solution, 1 mg of material in 998,203,000 mg of water at 20 °C. We round that up to 1,000,000 mg and so 1 ppm is 1 mg/L for the dilute solutions we are concerned with here.

It is a bit unusual to list hardness as mg/L as CaCO3. It is usually 'ppm as CaCO3', in this case 120 - 150 ppm as CaCO3.
 
mabrungard said:
That hardness value may be composed of both calcium and magnesium hardness. It may be impossible to reliably convert to a calcium or magnesium concentration unless it was reported as calcium hardness or magnesium hardness.
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Here's the link to the water report:

http://www.amwater.com/twq/stlouisregion_twq.pdf

Not sure how reliable or helpful these system-wide reports are for any random customer. Is the water they are providing really that uniform and consistent?
 
This one certainly isn't very useful as it does not tell you alkalinity which is the parameter of most significance to the brewer. You can guess that this will be some number similar to the hardness but as they don't report sulfate or chloride your guess based on that isn't going to be very good. You'll need to send of a sample to Ward Labs or some other outfit in order to find out, snapshot though it be, what you are dealing with.
 
ajdelange said:
This one certainly isn't very useful as it does not tell you alkalinity which is the parameter of most significance to the brewer. You can guess that this will be some number similar to the hardness but as they don't report sulfate or chloride your guess based on that isn't going to be very good.
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Is this report any better?

http://www.amwater.com/ccr/stlouisregion.pdf
 
No, afraid not. Brewers want

0) pH
1) Alkalinity
2) Calcium as the metal or caclcium hardness as CaCO3
3) Magnesium as the metal or magnesium hardness as CaCO3
4) Chloride
5) Sulfate
6) Nitrate
7) Nitrite
8) Iron
9) Manganese
10) Copper

Note that bicarbonate and carbonate are not on the list as they are not needed explicitly for brewing calculations. They are easily calculated from alkalinity and pH if one wants to look at them.
 
Ok I've read through 22 pages so far and my ADHD is kicking in so I want to see if im on the right track.

If im brewing an 5g IPA with RO and 10% Tap water I will be Adding 1 tsp of calcium chloride dehydrate as well as 1 tsp gypsum to my water BEFORE I dough in? and then will Add 2% sauermalz to the grist. After about 20 mins I will take a sample let it go to room temp and test it to make sure im in the ph range. Since I batch sparge I will add another 1 tsp of calcium chloride dehydrate as well as 1 tsp gypsum to my batch water ONLY leaving out the sauermalz since its already in the mash. Am I right or crazy???

Also im a reefer (saltwater aquarium guy) So I already have calcium chloride dehydrate on hand because I use it to dose my tank's alkalinity. So technically I can us this instead of buying from LHBS. It says that it is pharma grade calcium chloride dehydrate but on the lable says do not ingest (im assuming as is but obviously ok diluted in water) heres a link to the product just incase http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-bulk-calcium-chloride-aquarium-supplement.html also I couldn't tell you how long ive had this stuff probably going on 4 years b/c the aquarium doesn't take a lot, is it viable to use?

Sorry so many questions just trying to wrap my head around it.
 
RunNakeDnECU said:
If im brewing an 5g IPA with RO and 10% Tap water I will be Adding 1 tsp of calcium chloride dehydrate as well as 1 tsp gypsum to my water BEFORE I dough in?
Click to expand...
Per 5 gallons treated and if I had it to do again or could edit the OP I'd probably recommend starting with 1/2 tsp of each and working up or down according as to how the beer comes out and your taste.

RunNakeDnECU said:
and then will Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.
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Yes but the sauer malz is added to the grist at the same time as the other grains i.e. not after dough in.


RunNakeDnECU said:
After about 20 mins I will take a sample let it go to room temp and test it to make sure im in the ph range.
Click to expand...

It doesn't hurt to take pH readings as soon as you can get them. This lets you see how pH changes over time so that you will have a pretty good idea as to whether you have overshot or undershot early on. With acid or sauermal additions initial pH tends to be low and to decline over time to its steady state value. Don;t decide that your pH is out of bounds until 20 - 30 min after strike. It is best to make a test mash the day before you brew so you don't get a big pH surprise on brew day.

RunNakeDnECU said:
Since I batch sparge I will add another 1 tsp of calcium chloride dehydrate as well as 1 tsp gypsum to my batch water ONLY leaving out the sauermalz since its already in the mash. Am I right or crazy???
Click to expand...
RIght. Just make sure it is per 5 gallons treated.

RunNakeDnECU said:
Also im a reefer (saltwater aquarium guy) So I already have calcium chloride dehydrate on hand because I use it to dose my tank's alkalinity. So technically I can us this instead of buying from LHBS. It says that it is pharma grade calcium chloride dehydrate but on the lable says do not ingest (im assuming as is but obviously ok diluted in water) heres a link to the product just incase.
also I couldn't tell you how long ive had this stuff probably going on 4 years b/c the aquarium doesn't take a lot, is it viable to use?
Click to expand...
The stuff you linked to is the dihydrate meaning it was CaCl2.2H2O when it left the factory. The problem with calcium chloride is that it picks up water from the air and this stuff, if it is years old, pribably contains more waters that 2 per calcium ion. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=501377 tells you what to do about this.

If it is USP/NF grade (drug) then there is no problem using it in your beer. Just as a side note CaCl2 is not used to adjust alkalinity (in an aquarium or in beer though in beer it has an effect on residual alkalinity).
 
RunNakeDnECU said:
Ok I've read through 22 pages so far and my ADHD is kicking in so I want to see if im on the right track.

If im brewing an 5g IPA with RO and 10% Tap water I will be Adding 1 tsp of calcium chloride dehydrate as well as 1 tsp gypsum to my water BEFORE I dough in? and then will Add 2% sauermalz to the grist. After about 20 mins I will take a sample let it go to room temp and test it to make sure im in the ph range. Since I batch sparge I will add another 1 tsp of calcium chloride dehydrate as well as 1 tsp gypsum to my batch water ONLY leaving out the sauermalz since its already in the mash. Am I right or crazy???

Also im a reefer (saltwater aquarium guy) So I already have calcium chloride dehydrate on hand because I use it to dose my tank's alkalinity. So technically I can us this instead of buying from LHBS. It says that it is pharma grade calcium chloride dehydrate but on the lable says do not ingest (im assuming as is but obviously ok diluted in water) heres a link to the product just incase http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-bulk-calcium-chloride-aquarium-supplement.html also I couldn't tell you how long ive had this stuff probably going on 4 years b/c the aquarium doesn't take a lot, is it viable to use?

Sorry so many questions just trying to wrap my head around it.
Click to expand...

Interesting but why 10% tap? Why not all RO?
 
roncruiser said:
Interesting but why 10% tap? Why not all RO?
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From what I've read in those 22 pages, AJ states you can use all RO water if you want. The 10% tap is used as a comfort blanket to know that your getting some of those minerals back that you took out. (Even though your grain bill will contribute enough without the 10%) correct me if I'm wrong @ajdelange
 
RunNakeDnECU said:
From what I've read in those 22 pages, AJ states you can use all RO water if you want. The 10% tap is used as a comfort blanket to know that your getting some of those minerals back that you took out. (Even though your grain bill will contribute enough without the 10%) correct me if I'm wrong @ajdelange
Click to expand...

Understood, but since the 10% is an unknown quantity. Albeit, a small quantity but still unknown and uncontrolled nonetheless. For me the whole purpose is going with a known quantity as a base. That would be 100% RO.

I wonder if there's a way to re-mineralize RO water with an additive.
 
roncruiser said:
Understood, but since the 10% is an unknown quantity. Albeit, a small quantity but still unknown and uncontrolled nonetheless. For me the whole purpose is going with a known quantity as a base. That would be 100% RO.

I wonder if there's a way to re-mineralize RO water with an additive.
Click to expand...

True but I think the 10% is such a small amount that it's not going to impact your beer either way. This is just my understanding. I'm sure the big dogs will chime in soon.
 
RunNakeDnECU said:
True but I think the 10% is such a small amount that it's not going to impact your beer either way. This is just my understanding. I'm sure the big dogs will chime in soon.
Click to expand...

Whether you use 10% tap or 100% RO, as long it's done the same way each time, time after time. The whole point was quantifying what's added to the water, if you use 10% tap, it's all good. As long as it's 10% tap water each time. Makes better sense to me.

For me using, 100% RO, there has to be a way to reconstitute the needed minerals removed by the RO process in a measured way.
 
RunNakeDnECU said:
From what I've read in those 22 pages, AJ states you can use all RO water if you want. The 10% tap is used as a comfort blanket to know that your getting some of those minerals back that you took out. (Even though your grain bill will contribute enough without the 10%) correct me if I'm wrong @ajdelange
Click to expand...

Absolutely right. It's probably silly but I do it.
 
Is spring water a good choice to use if i dont know what minerals to add to my tap hard water?
 
HomeDrewBrew said:
Is spring water a good choice to use if i dont know what minerals to add to my tap hard water?
Click to expand...

'Spring Water' is one of those red herring words in brewing. Its otherwise meaningless in its suitability for brewing. In almost all cases, its not suitable without treatment. Even with spring water, find out what is in it. Some of those companies publish the ionic content on their website.
 
I'm not sure its unuseable for most brewing, but the magnesium level is a little high. The bicarbonate can be neutralized with acid. But this spring water is a case in point: It is NOT necessarily suited for brewing.

Spring Water is not an indicator of brewing suitability. We are better off starting with RO or distilled water than spring water....red herring!
 
Great thread here, enjoyed it from the beginning. Have had great successes using the minimal minerals in RO as suggested by the primer with all my beers except Hefeweizen. In 12 batches of which I have brewed in the past 6 months the finished beers turn out too acidic. While the mash ph's have all been around 5.4 the pH the finished beer is usually in the 3.8-3.9 range which I find too tart even for this style. I know the German weissbier yeast are able to quickly wrestle the beer ph to one that best suits them but I'd prefer the beer finish closer to 4.2.

I am surmising that by using RO water to brew there isn't enough buffering capacity with low minerals and the yeast can too easily pull the pH too low. If I am correct, would this be a case where adding alkalinity via CaCO3 or CaOH to the mash/wert then neutralizing with acid/sauermaltz to create buffers such as calcium lactate be advantageous? Have also considered just adding calcium lactate directly to the mash but don't know if I'm on the right track.

Any help here would be greatly appreciated.
 

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