How much better is your all-grain brew?

How much better do you find your all-grain batches than previous mini-mash extract batches and why do you feel they are better?

Please only reply if you previously brewed using the extract and mini-mash method.

It's pretty impossible to know for sure if you are tasting a difference or merely making it true due to the investment or simple desire to have it taste better. You'd have to do a double blind taste test. Another thing that happens is you usually start off extract and then progress to AG. Even if you know for sure that the AG batch tastes better,, is it the AG method that's making it better or are you just getting better at sanitation, recipe construction, fermentation temps, etc?

Many people jump to full boils at the same time as moving to AG and that's also been known to make improvements.

Purely anecdotal, but I like my recent AG batches so much more that I rarely crack a bottle of the older stuff.

Here's how I put it:

The leap in quality when going from extract w/ steeped grains to partial-mash is much, much higher than the leap in quality when going from partial-mash to all-grain.

It also depends on what proportion of the sugars in your partial-mash come from grain vs. extract. I typically have a high grain/extract ratio in my PM's, so obviously there's not going to be a huge difference in quality if I replaced the small amount of extract in there with grain.

I made some good beers from all-extract and from steeping or partial mash additions. But my AG beers are fantastic by comparison. They just taste fresher. Plus you have complete control to tweak them in any direction you please, so I can make a beer taste exactly the way I want. That's harder to do when you are working from extract. Plus, AG ingredients are WAY cheaper.

It could just be that I am a better AG brewer than extract brewer, but I do really think that AG brewing yields better beer.

Having said this, I still occasionally brew an extract kit, but only if I don't have time for AG. One can still make excellent beer from extracts.

I was an extract brewer for a few months to learn the process. This was about 5 years ago when I started homebrewing. During that time , I did straight extract beers, steeped grain beers and a process like the mini mash procedure currently popular. Let me say that extract brewing in it various forms (extract alone, steeping grain, smal amounts of grain mashing, etc) all make excellent beers. In fact, in home brew competitions, beers using extracts often are indistinguishable from all grain brews and are often the winning recipes. I moved from extract brewing to all grain for several reasons, none of which had to do with the quality of the beers it made. The reason I made the switch was;

* Educational Purposes. I wanted to learn more about the process of all grain brewing and the variables associated with the process on the final beer.

* Mashing Experimentation. I wanted to experiment with mashing times, temperatures and other conditions to better understand the influences of the enzymes in malt on the finished beer.

* Base malt Experimentation I wanted to try various base malts in beers to see their effects.

I guess all of these fall into more of a "scientific experiementation" mode which fits my scientific background. Some of the advantages I see with all grain brewing are that it is particularly advantageous when you are making light colored and light body beers. Things such as pale lagers and blonde ales can be brewed to better fit the style profile for color and body. It also allows you to adjust your base malt to fit the beer profile you want. For example, an all Maris Otter ale is not as easy to do with extracts and mini mash.

So if you are an experimenter and you have exhausted trying different things with extract brews, then all grain might be what you are looking for. However, from my experience, unless you are focused on lagers or blonde ales, you will not see a dramatic increase ( say a magnitue of 10 or 100 fold) in beer quality characteristics going to all grain.

I am sure others may have a different opinion and I look forward to reading them.

Dr Malt

I recently graduated to All Grain brewing last year after a 7 year sabbatical.

The move to All Grain has changed my life. The beer produced is very much better than extract and the extra work is WAAAAAY worth is. The proof is in the product.

I'll never go back to extract unless I'm in some foreign country whose beer sucks.

I did extract w/ steeped grains and mini-mashes for seven years before going AG two years ago. I'm glad I did them for so long. It really helped me improve and learn over time. I got to where my extract brews were so good that I almost had no choice but to go AG.

I see the difference in more diversity and more subtle flavor distinctions. Some of my extract brews had a tell-tale sameness to them Not all, but some. An IPA and a pale ale would taste similar - just one more hoppy than the other - and look nearly identical.

I've never experienced that with my AG brews. Since I have more control brewing AG, my beers have shown more variety in their taste and appearance. And since the 'per batch' cost is cheaper, I find I brew more often, thus giving me the chance to try my hand at more styles.

Still, extract w/ steeped grains and mini-mash brews can yield excellent results. My girlfriend does extract w/ steeped grains and mini-mash brews and she produces some excellent beers that you'd be hard pressed to distinguish from an AG brew. Last night I sampled her latest, a Kolsch, and I had to remind myself that it was a mini-mash. It was that good!

Way better. Once I got the mash/sparge thing figured out. First few times I had couldy beer from improper sparge (tannins).

Onlt way I'd do extract again is if I am forced to live in an Apt again where my 8' brew sculpture has no home. But I'd cry wach time I made a beer.

Though someone wants me to make them beer for there wedding. I'll probably do extarct and have them pay for costs. No use spending all that mash time on someon else's beer. Especailly when they need 20 gallons or more.

It's a friend of a freind so I'm tempted to chage them a carboy rental fee since this would tie up my carboys for my own beer!

I made some pretty good extract batches, but the PM was noticeably better. It lost that "extract taste" and tasted much more complex. My Dead Guy clone and Pete's Wicked Ale clone (both PMs) were really good.

Now, my AG batches I think are much improved. Maybe it's because I'm just more aware of the process but it seems to me that my color and flavor are right on to what I am looking for.

I still do extract & PM even though I've been doing AG for years. I probably do PM more than AG & extract combined, but since I tend to use different methods for different styles, direct comparisons are tough. Generally, the hoppier the ale, the less inclined I am to bother with AG. My 3CPA (Columbus, Chinook, Cascades, Perle, Amarillo) is extract. The Bent Rod Rye is AG. Didn't have much choice there as 40% of the bill is specialty grains or adjuncts.

Nostrildamus said:

Please only reply if you previously brewed using the extract and mini-mash method.

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I've only ever done AG, so I guess I can't respond.

Oops, I just did.

I have made some damn good beer, though.

No matter Sparky, I think I've got the answers I needed.

The main impetous behind looking at going all-grain is the control over the brew which it yields. I knew there as a difference before, but then I read Daniels' Designing Great Beer and my life changed forever. It demystified brewing so much so that now I'm approaching it from such a different angle. What kind of angle? An educated one, that's what kind.

I'm no longer intimidated by the calculations and thought that might go into a brew. Instead, I now relish the fact that I know how to figure out the gravity, attenuation, ABV, IBUs and that I know what makes a Bitter differ from a Pale Ale etc.

I think all-grain is the next step and it feels like a natural progression that I've grown into rather than feeling like I'm entering into the unknown and hoping for the best. Nonetheless, there's $$$, time and space to consider and that's why I've started the two threads regarding quality and time of all-grain brewing.

Once again, the folks frequenting this forum have not let me down with their quick responses. Thanks all.

Although I have not done an AG batch (but have done partial mash), I don't see my approach to doing so any more or less about just making good beer. In all of my planning, I have looked at recipes and ingredients of beers that I want to make and drink. I'm one of those people who wants to learn as much as I can about what I'm doing before I jump into it. But I'm also a realist and know that you can't whip out a bow and arrow and hit the bulls eye on your first try.

Subsequently, I read a few books, joined my local brew club, got onto a few forums and exchanged info and asked questions. All the while I was reading a recipe for my first 5-gallon batch and "tweaking" it to see what would happen. And right after that I brewed a partial-mash because the recipe looked yummy.

It's all in perspective. If you want to make a certain beer, do it the way you feel is best for your comfort zone. But don't forget to relax and enjoy yourself in the process.

Tony

> Oops, I just did.

Way to go!

> I have made some damn good beer, though.

If you weren't in TX, I'd want to test this claim. ;-)

Tony

I can't tell the difference in a blind taste test (skill of the brewer and quality of the ingredients being equal), but I'm the first to admit I don't necessarily have the most discerning palate in the world. I mostly brew AG because I'm techie and gadgety and you do get a ton more of control over your recipes and process.

I belive that you can make fantastic beer with extract, but you are sort of limited on the control you have over those batches. I feel that with AG you have total control over the beer you make. If done right you cant tell the difference between the two but if you are the one brewing them you certianly can.

Cheers

I love AG. I make better beer, control the color almost exactly, utilize a far greater palette of ingredients, and it's just plain more fun. It's very gratifying to take something that looks like livestock feed and turn it into a tasty beverage with just heat, water, hops, and yeast.

I don't know how much better AG is than extract, because I've only brewed 1.5 extract batches.

I do know that twice I've been told my AG brews are commercial quality. Flyguy said my cranberry ale was excellent and today some of my non home brewing work mates told me my Blue Moon clone couldn't be distinguished from a commercial beer.

I don't think it gets much better that. I mean people probably brew better beers than I do, but when someone tells you your beers are commercial quality as far as taste/off flavors, etc goes, that's pretty good as far as I am concerned.

I bottled my first AG batch, an ESB, a week ago. I broke down and tried on today, but it was not carbonated yet. It did taste cleaner and less syrupy than my extract/steeping grains batches tend to taste.

I did notice a huge improvement when I went to full boils for my extract brews. I guess we'll see in a week or so how much difference going AG will make.

I do know this, though. It's a heck of a lot more fun to make AG beer.

You can brew awesome extract beer.

That said, you can buy some pretty damn good marinara sauce in a jar at the grocery store....but it ain't ever gonna be the same as if you pick your own tomatoes and follow an old family, slow cook recipe passed down through the generations.

I was going to use the frozen OJ concentrate VS freshed squeezed, but I think I used that last time.

brewman ! said:

I don't know how much better AG is than extract, because I've only brewed 1.5 extract batches.

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just curious...how did you do 1.5???

i brew some awesome extract beer on occasion. right now i'm hitting a bit of a brick wall, tho with stuck fermentations, don't know why. probably just cuz i'm changing things up so much, experimenting, and i don't have enough control. need another fermentation chiller for one...

needless to say, i do want to move to all-grain and you're all making very jealous i've watched and helped with a few batches, but have yet to do my own AG batch. man, i need to find a new place with a garage...

I have only done extract and all grain. My all grain beers are ton's better. They just have that "professional beer" taste. Not sure how else to describe it, it taste like something I would buy at the store, but better IMO.

I'm with Rhoob on the "Sameness" problem with extract. I think it's hard to make an extract beer that doesn't have a taste similar to other extract beers. AG, on the other hand, has a very different taste.

Here's another metaphor: it's like the difference between using a packet of Taco seasoning versus using fresh vegetables to make your own taco seasoning. Old Mexican women would be offended by Ortega seasoning. THey're EACs. They also make hella good tacos.

While I am still getting my Ag procedures down, I have to vote for AG over extract also. I just tapped my first AG Kolsch last night and it is so much closer to the commercial versions of this style than my extract ones were.

Cheesefood said:

Old Mexican women would be offended by Ortega seasoning. THey're EACs.

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You owe me a monitor. I just spit my drink out at picturing you calling some old mexican woman an EAC

mmm...tacos for lunch today