Very Very High FG........1.051- YIKES!

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kaj030201

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What should I do about this? I'm about 4 months in, and the hydrometer still reads 1.051.

The estimated OG was 1.170, and I followed all necessary techniques to ferment properly using the WLP099 (Super High gravity) yeast. I even added a packet of the Red Star Champagne yeast and some Beano, and I'm still at 1.051. It's been steady there for 2 months.

Can I add more Champagne yeast?

Any other options?
 
What are you making with such a high SG? If you let us know, and post the recipe, maybe we can help. If your OG was 1.170, and you're at 1.051, you've had 66% attenuation, so it should go lower. The problem is that you're over 15% ABV already, and few yeasts will go much over that. Champagne yeast can, but if you pitch more in a 15% ABV environment, the yeast will die off. Alcohol is toxic to yeast, and they don't like working in a high alcohol environment.

I don't know much about the super high gravity yeast, so maybe we can get some input from those who know more about it.

Beano won't help- unfermentables isn't the problem. It's alcohol toxicity to yeast that is the problem.
 
You're down to 29+/-% of the original gravity. On a beer that big 25% is the norm and about all you can expect.
So you're close, it's just that start big end big, start huge............

Unless you used alot of sugar it's going to finish high.

How does it taste?
 
I'd e-mail the Whites - they may have something to suggest since it's their yeast you used.

How did you oxygenate the wort? Something of this gravity would require *lots* of oxygen early on for the yeasts to finish to terminal gravity.
 
Also brews of this size are often fed incrementally instead of throwing yeast in 1.170 wort. Recipe would be fun and maybe help us determine a bit more.
 
Also brews of this size are often fed incrementally instead of throwing yeast in 1.170 wort. Recipe would be fun and maybe help us determine a bit more.

Volume boiled- 7.5 gallons
Final Volume- 2.5 gallons

3 lbs. American 6-row Pale info
4 lbs. American 2-row info
.5 lbs. Weyermann Carafa III® info
.5 lbs. American Caramel 80°L info
1.5 lbs. Belgian Special B info
3 lbs. Dry Amber Extract info
.5 lbs. Dry Extra Light Extract info
1 lbs. Candi Sugar Dark info
1 lbs. Oats Flaked info
.5 lbs. Barley Raw info
1 oz. Cascade (Pellets, 5.50 %AA) boiled 45 min. info
.5 oz. Centennial (Pellets, 10.00 %AA) boiled 75 min. info
.5 oz. Nelson Sauvin (Pellets, 11.00 %AA) boiled 3 min. info
Yeast : White Labs WLP099 Super High Gravity Ale info
Pasteur Champagne Yeast

I DID follow all White Labs instructions on "feeding" the wort, minus maybe the aeration part. I used my aquarium pump to blow air into the cooled wort for maybe 5-6 minutes, and thats about it. It did ferment nicely for a while, until reaching 1.070. I added beano and champagne yeast and got it down to 1.051, but it hasbn't moved from there. Can I add 3-4 more packets of the yeast? What about more beano?

And it tastes pretty incredible. The Nelson Sauvin hops really show through, but the taste is very chewy and sweet. I want to get the gravity down a bit more if possible.
 
Volume boiled- 7.5 gallons
Final Volume- 2.5 gallons

3 lbs. American 6-row Pale info
4 lbs. American 2-row info
.5 lbs. Weyermann Carafa III® info
.5 lbs. American Caramel 80°L info
1.5 lbs. Belgian Special B info
3 lbs. Dry Amber Extract info
.5 lbs. Dry Extra Light Extract info
1 lbs. Candi Sugar Dark info
1 lbs. Oats Flaked info
.5 lbs. Barley Raw info
1 oz. Cascade (Pellets, 5.50 %AA) boiled 45 min. info
.5 oz. Centennial (Pellets, 10.00 %AA) boiled 75 min. info
.5 oz. Nelson Sauvin (Pellets, 11.00 %AA) boiled 3 min. info
Yeast : White Labs WLP099 Super High Gravity Ale info
Pasteur Champagne Yeast

I DID follow all White Labs instructions on "feeding" the wort, minus maybe the aeration part. I used my aquarium pump to blow air into the cooled wort for maybe 5-6 minutes, and thats about it. It did ferment nicely for a while, until reaching 1.070. I added beano and champagne yeast and got it down to 1.051, but it hasbn't moved from there. Can I add 3-4 more packets of the yeast? What about more beano?

And it tastes pretty incredible. The Nelson Sauvin hops really show through, but the taste is very chewy and sweet. I want to get the gravity down a bit more if possible.


Again, Beano won't help. The problem isn't the lack of fermentables- the problem is lack of viable yeast that can work in an alcohol toxicity environment. I'm unsure of the high gravity yeast, though- emailing WL is a great idea, or calling them.
 
Volume boiled- 7.5 gallons
Final Volume- 2.5 gallons

3 lbs. American 6-row Pale info
4 lbs. American 2-row info
.5 lbs. Weyermann Carafa III® info
.5 lbs. American Caramel 80°L info
1.5 lbs. Belgian Special B info
3 lbs. Dry Amber Extract info
.5 lbs. Dry Extra Light Extract info
1 lbs. Candi Sugar Dark info
1 lbs. Oats Flaked info
.5 lbs. Barley Raw info
1 oz. Cascade (Pellets, 5.50 %AA) boiled 45 min. info
.5 oz. Centennial (Pellets, 10.00 %AA) boiled 75 min. info
.5 oz. Nelson Sauvin (Pellets, 11.00 %AA) boiled 3 min. info
Yeast : White Labs WLP099 Super High Gravity Ale info
Pasteur Champagne Yeast

I DID follow all White Labs instructions on "feeding" the wort, minus maybe the aeration part. I used my aquarium pump to blow air into the cooled wort for maybe 5-6 minutes, and thats about it. It did ferment nicely for a while, until reaching 1.070. I added beano and champagne yeast and got it down to 1.051, but it hasbn't moved from there. Can I add 3-4 more packets of the yeast? What about more beano?

And it tastes pretty incredible. The Nelson Sauvin hops really show through, but the taste is very chewy and sweet. I want to get the gravity down a bit more if possible.

You should have aerated every 2-3 hrs until fermentation started and saved some of the starter to add later (AFTER MAKING ANOTHER STARTER). That being said if it tastes pretty incredible, what's the problem?
 
What about pitching a turbo yeast? Shouldn't get bad flavor from them since most of the fermentation has already happened, if champagne yeast won't handle it then maybe they will... just a thought, never tried it.
 
Your chances of getting it much lower are very small. You did a long boil-down & probably have a lot of caramelized sugars in addition to the contributions from the C80L and Special B. The Special B alone gives you 16 points.
 
I'm with David_42. I don't think it's going anywhere, and I don't think adding a 3rd variety of yeast is gonna do poop to help it. I think it's attenuated as far as it's ever gonna.

With an all-grain version, I would say to mash it longer and lower, to make it a very fermentable wort... but that doesn't apply to extract recipes as much, since you can't make extract any more fermentable than it already is. :/

I'm just curious here... did you really boil down to 2.5 gallons? I assume you did, because your grainbill couldn't have given you 5 gal of 1.170 wort. What were you going for with this beer? What were you trying to make? I'm not criticizing... just trying to understand what's up... It's just REALLY unusual to have beers with an OG of 1.170 without a specific "model" in mind, and REALLY unusual to try to get it to dry out to 85% or 90% attenuation.... :drunk:
 
Just out of curiosity, what would beano do in relation to fermenting beer?

Beano helps break down complex saccharides into fermentable compounds. So in brewing context it can help with conversion. In its intended marketable purpose it helps reduce the 'expulsion' of gasses created when the natural enzymes in your body can't break down the starch chains. More specifically, the lack of enzymes, alpha galactosidase.
 
Yeah sorry dude yeast doesn't really like to grow in anything highter than 1.075. I would have fed it in stages like others have said.
 
If Mr. White has not answered your emails, he is out here for a brewers conference.
High gravity brews are hard to do. The only ones I have done are with meads. In those I would take out the must, add to a starter and get the massive amount of yeast prepared to do battle, then add them in. I admit it was more of a "feeling / art" than anything else.
BTW: I wanted to go and listen to a couple of Mr. Whites public talks at local micro-brews, but the need to actually homebrew over-came me. Then the need to drink some, then hell no I'm not driving.
 
What about pitching a turbo yeast? Shouldn't get bad flavor from them since most of the fermentation has already happened, if champagne yeast won't handle it then maybe they will... just a thought, never tried it.

anyone else have any thoughts about this?
 
I don't think it's going anywhere, and I don't think adding a 3rd variety of yeast is gonna do poop to help it. I think it's attenuated as far as it's ever gonna.

I meant even Turbo yeast. After all. Turbo yeast is "rated" up to, what, 20% on their highest-alcohol strain. Their normal stuff is intended for 12%-14% ABV, which you've already surpassed. If you dump in turbo yeast, I bet the yeast dies. Alcohol toxicity. I'm sorry, I know you want someone else to come tell you it'll work differently. :(

I would bottle it and be done with it, and start aging it for many months.
 
I'm guessing it is finished, a long boil will caramelize a lot of fermentables, the yeast died out from the high alcohol, nothing that I've seen is going to restart that fermentation, especially once bottled. I'd bottle it up and enjoy it occasionally if it does pretty incredible.
 
I meant even Turbo yeast. After all. Turbo yeast is "rated" up to, what, 20% on their highest-alcohol strain. Their normal stuff is intended for 12%-14% ABV, which you've already surpassed. If you dump in turbo yeast, I bet the yeast dies. Alcohol toxicity. I'm sorry, I know you want someone else to come tell you it'll work differently. :(

I would bottle it and be done with it, and start aging it for many months.

the aging has already started- its been almost 4 months on bourbon barrel oak chunks, then 14 more months on sauvignon barrel oak chunks, then into the bottle for a few years:D
 
Whoa. I think you like your beer on the "weird" side. Power to ya, cheers! That's the brilliant thing about homebrewing, you can make something that nobody else has.
 
take your hydrometer and throw it out onto a busy street....problem solved.
 
So WL told me to aerate and add some WLP001. I am up for trying anything, but this seems like it would be in vain since alcohol content is about 16% already. Is it worth it?
 
OOH! Good idea!

I could see an aerated starter of WLP001. That makes more sense. Only 1 liter, so that it doesn't dilute the beer too much, but aerated to all bejeezus.
 
Before you panic about Aerating or oxygenating.....Listen to what White labs is saying...If he says to do it, do it.

Just because it goes against the common "wisdom" that we have been told about oxygenation, doesn't mean that the guy that invented the yeast, and does constant R&D on his products is wrong....Perhaps in the light of new info, the "common wisdom" is out dated or was full of sh@t to begin with.

He has been going to conferences lately saying some interesting things about adding oxygen to high grav worts...He has also been saying to add 2 minutes worth oxygen between 10 and 12 hours after pitching yeast in worts above 1.050. It helps the yeast and has shown no cardboard tastes.

So perhaps since this beer is down to 1.051, if the lab guys are saying to do it, then just maybe they know a helluva lot more about this then we do.


He talked about some of the new discoveries in his labs on basic brewing right after NHC

July 3, 2008 - NHC Wrapup Pt. 1
Steve joins James as they begin their collection of interviews gathered from experts at the National Homebrewers Conference in Cincinnati. This week: Dave Wills, Michael Ferguson and Chris White.

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr07-03-08nhcwrapup01.mp3

Ideas change you know, and old ideas and beliefs get shoved away with new info...Even Palmer has changed some of his beliefs about IBU's that he wrote in How to brew, after learning some new things...dig out his interview on basic brewing a few months back as well....I went "wtf" when I heard what he was saying as well....but gee, I trust him...Maybe I should shift my beliefs about IBU's as well...Like maybe I should shift my beliefs about oxygen and yeasts, if the president of White Labs is telling me what to do with his product.

Oh by the way....They discovered a few years back...that the earth is really round!!!! I guess we learn new things everyday!:D
 
Revvy, while I understand your point about new ideas I don't see how aerating and pitching WLP001 (with alcohol tolerance to 15%) into a beer that is already 16% is going to do any good, and could possibly expose it to something (like a fruit fly) that can ruin it. I still say if it tastes good don't mess with it
 
Personally I think your beer is done.

70% attenuation.
15.6% ABV.
23% of your actual grain weight was extract.
16% of your grain bill was specialty grains.
67% boil off.

Time to bottle and age...:rockin:
 
I'm with da Muncher. Age for a year or so, and see how this puppy turns out!

I gotta say, even if it's NOT the FG you were hoping for, it sounds delicious, and it sounds like you like it too!!!! :D
 
]So WL told me to aerate and add some WLP001. I am up for trying anything, but this seems like it would be in vain since alcohol content is about 16% already. Is it worth it?[/B]

No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Isn't aerating going to be a one-way ticket to Cardboard Town?!?!?!

White Labs suggested he aerate it...I wrote what I wrote becasue as you can see people, jumped in and said no (including you niquejim)..You guys all shot down What the creators of the yeast suggested because it went against what we all come to believe...

If you listened to the podcast...Then you'd hear Chris White doesn't just sit there and "think" what might work...They take wort, and their yeast and they push it to their limits...So I think that perhaps if Chris or his Lab rats told the OP what would work best...Then just maybe they would know what's best...Since after all, they work with the stuff everyday...

Maybe their "data" on the oxydizing properties of O2 in fermented beer is a little more up to date than ours...I don't think Chris White or the lab wonks at white labs would tell him to do something that would intentionally screw up his beer would they?

I don't know the why's behind what the people told the OP to do; I keep hearing rumbles that it take a hellova lot of O2 to really damage your beer, I've heard it several times on Basic brewing Podcasts from various people, including White...

But if I had sent a detailed explanation to White Labs, with all the numbers and info from the first post, and Someone from there told me to do something, even if it went against what I have come to believe, or what the common wisdom said, I'd sure as heck do it...
 
White Labs suggested he aerate it...I wrote what I wrote becasue as you can see people, jumped in and said no (including you niquejim)..You guys all shot down What the creators of the yeast suggested because it went against what we all come to believe...

If you listened to the podcast...Then you'd hear Chris White doesn't just sit there and "think" what might work...They take wort, and their yeast and they push it to their limits...So I think that perhaps if Chris or his Lab rats told the OP what would work best...Then just maybe they would know what's best...Since after all, they work with the stuff everyday...

Maybe their "data" on the oxydizing properties of O2 in fermented beer is a little more up to date than ours...I don't think Chris White or the lab wonks at white labs would tell him to do something that would intentionally screw up his beer would they?

I don't know the why's behind what the people told the OP to do; I keep hearing rumbles that it take a hellova lot of O2 to really damage your beer, I've heard it several times on Basic brewing Podcasts from various people, including White...

But if I had sent a detailed explanation to White Labs, with all the numbers and info from the first post, and Someone from there told me to do something, even if it went against what I have come to believe, or what the common wisdom said, I'd sure as heck do it...


As I said I understand your point, but with that big of a beer I think it's done.

Also, do you use what they call a pitchable vial without a starter?;)
Not trying to mess with you, but I think there is more chance of problems than help with this fix
 
As I said I understand your point, but with that big of a beer I think it's done.

Also, do you use what they call a pitchable vial without a starter?;)
Not trying to mess with you, but I think there is more chance of problems than help with this fix

You think so, but evidently the folks at White Labs aparantly think something different, or else they wouldn't have suggested it!

And actually I sat down last week with the owner of my local LHBS who just got back from a brewshop owner's conference where he sat down and had a few beers with Chris White...and guess what? Chris White says you don't need a starter with their pitchible yeast tubes. It surprised my friend and surprised me as well...but again, that is what White was saying...I don't use tube yeast myself, so it doesn't affect me, BUT if I did, I might consider that Chris knows more about it than I do...

But can't you see, that White Labs might actually know more about this that you AND me combined??? The OP didn't get that suggestion from Joe Schmo on the corner, it came from White Labs! I just don't get why everyone's discounting that advice so quickly...Yes it might go against everything we have come to believe, but it came from the fricken horses mouth!!!

That's what I don't get..so it's out of the box thinking, but it's out of the box thinking from the very lab that creates, or harvests or whatever the hell they do, with the yeast?

Think of all the "out of the box thinking" that we know use every day, that has pushed this hobby to where it is today...The cooler as mash tun, An Aquarium Pump, O2 bottle, Airstone, the turkey fryer...You betcha the first person that ever suggested he was going to take an airstone, and a hardware store oxygen bottle, and stick the stone in his wort, got jumped on by all the "expert" old timers....

The only difference is this time the suggestion came from the creators of the yeast, the people who work with it every day.

Let me see...hmmmm, who are these White Labs folks anyway...

Chris White started the lab in 1995 after researching and developing a library of brewers yeast strains from around the world. Chris White received an undergraduate degree in biochemistry from the University of California, Davis, and a Ph.D in biochemistry from U.C. San Diego. Besides his duties at White Labs, Chris is a chemistry and biochemistry lecturer at U.C. San Diego and is a member of the Siebel Institute faculty.

Lisa White holds a B.S. in Cell Biology from the University of California, Davis, and conducted post graduate studies at the University of California, San Diego. Lisa received the American Society of Hematology Scholarship Award in 1995, and conducted research at the Komives Laboratory at U. C. San Diego. Lisa is a member of the American Society for Brewing Chemists and is a member of the Siebel Institute faculty.

Neva Parker Lab Manager, has been with the White Labs family since 2002. She earned her bachelor's degree in microbiology from Gonzaga University in Spokane, WA. She became interested in beer while studying abroad in London when she attended the annual Campaign for Real Ale (CAMRA) festival. Neva manages laboratory operations and has been responsible for researching and developing new products and services, as well as speaking at several workshops and conferences. She is a member of the American Society of Brewing Chemists and defending AHA homebrew club of the year, the Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (QUAFF). In her spare time, Neva enjoys spending time with her beer enthusiast husband, Glen, and teaching her dog Kylie tricks. Her hobbies include cooking, eating, brewing, organizing, and happy hour.

Hmmm I dunno...I kinda think that if the info came from any of these three people about their product, then I gotta think they know a little more about this here issue than a lot of us combined. Hell I'm sure that Neva's probably very sexy right pinkey toe knows more about yeast and fermentation than I do...

i'm just sayin :mug:

(Honestly, I don't give a care...I just couldn't believe how quick every shut down the idea, because it goes against common brewing wisdom. Even though it came from White Labs.....Maybe every now and then common brewing wisdoms needs to be let go of to make way for something new.)
 

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