Way, way, way over the top Sam Adams Utopia clone

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heinz57 said:
The bold was as far as I could get saying it out loud. That's a huge sentence, this thread must have gotten you jazzed about MLTs.
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I didn't think anything of it until I saw your reply and then I realized I skipped his post entirely. Kind of subconsciously. Yeah, period's are your friend.
 
With a brew as big as this Utopia clone I can see getting a little excited and punctuation going by the wayside.

And no, we haven't made it yet. We'll be doing it sometime between Christmas and NY. I'm picking up the yeast on Thursday and will begin ramping up the starter.

PTN
 
paulthenurse said:
With a brew as big as this Utopia clone I can see getting a little excited and punctuation going by the wayside.

And no, we haven't made it yet. We'll be doing it sometime between Christmas and NY. I'm picking up the yeast on Thursday and will begin ramping up the starter.

PTN
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rock on, my friend. I will be living vicariously through your brewing so take lots of pictures and keep the forum updated!
 
Went by the LHBS last night and he wasnt' able to get the 099 in this weeks order. He says he'll have it for us next week. Not a problem, it looks like I won't be free until the weekend after New Years because of my work schedule. Even if we have to wait another week we'll still be able to step it up 4-5 times.
PTN
 
Paul, just a thought here on your starters. Would it possibly be worth it to brew a couple "sacrificial" beers, one in each fermenter (I think your using two), and then pitch this bohemith on the yeast cake?

It seems to me that if your going to pitch multiple vials to even get it down to a 3-5 gallon starter you might as well come up with a mild or something else who's yeast cake won't influence the flavor (if that's even possible to do with a beer this big) but still doesn't taste bad.

Either that, or the Mr Malty calculator is just not even close to being able to handle the calculations for a wort this big and you can get by with less.

(PS - subscribed for the results and because I don't think I will ever have the guts to go this big)
 
Well, I thought about doing that but I wouldn't want to use the 099 on something like a mild. I think that anything I ended up doing like that would just end up being a "throw away batch." I'm not crazy about that idea, I'm way too much a skinflint yankee at heart. (I routinely make second run wines from my grape pommace and even made a nice partigyle brown ale from the 888 RIS. I'm not a cheap ass, I'm thrifty.)

I recognize that the idea of squalking about spending $20 on a batch of pedestrian throw away beer so that I can have a decent yeast cake for my $200 dollar Utopia borders on the absurd. Maybe it's even well inside the border. Maybe the INS is searching all over town looking for it. Whatever.

Ok, I'm convincing myself that in the end it is the right thing to do. When I actually try to defend not doing it I see what a rediculous idea not doing it is. Now I need to convince Chris. And slip a few more bucks out of the checking account while Alice isn't looking.

Ok here's a question for the board, what would you make, using 099, as a 'throw away batch' in order to build up a yeast cake for the Utopia? A Skullspitter Scotish ale comes to mind, if only cause it would prime the yeasties to a higher gravity and be a decent beer to boot.

PTN
 
paulthenurse said:
Ok here's a question for the board, what would you make, using 099, as a 'throw away batch' in order to build up a yeast cake for the Utopia? A Skullspitter Scotish ale comes to mind, if only cause it would prime the yeasties to a higher gravity and be a decent beer to boot.
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I'd do a nice Wee Heavy.

Wee Heavy as a starter. Heh. Me like. :)
 
Ok we decided tonight that we're going to be making the Utopia on Saturday Jan 3rd. I'm working overnight the night before and so I will be getting to Chris's house around 8. Chris has promised me a soft chair in the garage in case I doze off during the mash. (Depending on when we crack open the real bottle of Utopia that may become an important feature for me.)

If any of you guys in the area want to come by to watch this momentous brew PM me and I'll give you the scope and directions. (We'll be in Mansfield, near Rt 140.)

And we also decided to make a Barley Wine this weekend as a starter. (That is probably one of the silliest sentences I've ever written.)

PTN
 
I'm not much of a whiskey drinker, I might drink 1/2 bottle total in a calender year, so I can't really get into the nuances of different whiskeys. But I thought that what we would do for the SAU is to soak our oak chips in some sort of whiskey for a few weeks or months before introducing them into the bulk storage vessels. That way we get the oak and the wiskey nuances that SAU gets from the time spent in real whiskey barrels.

So, would someone give me a quick and dirty, readers digest, Whiskey for idiots explaination of the differences between the different types of whiskey. I know the basics, irish is barley based, scotch is 50 % corn and barley and peat smoked, bourbon is allowed to sour then distilled, Canadian is crap, etc. (If I totally F'd that explaination up, well, Like I said, I got the BASIC's.)

So which of the many types of whiskeys should I soak my oak chips in? Why? Should we do several small mason jars of different types of whiskey? What will the different whiskeys add to the flavor profile.

I recognize that I'm asking folks who for the most part haven't tasted the original recipie to comment on how a minor component will influence the end product, but I'm really out of my league when it comes to whiskey. (Although I was at a wake recently for a 40 year veteran of the Boston PD and there were AT LEAST 5 bottles of Irish whiskey being passed up and down the line as over 200 of us waited in line to bid Walter goodbye. That should have smartened me up a little, but alas, I was overcome with me grief and could only drown me sorrows, without truely appreciating the differences.)

Help a brother out.
 
Not having tasted the original its hard to tell you what to do, but I will help on the bourbon side since that's what I know best.

Many (I am not sure if all, but I know at least 100% of Makers Mark and I think multiple other manufacturers) used bourbon barrels end up going to scotch companies to be later used in scotch production, so I am not sure if Utopia uses old bourbon barrels and if they do it wouldn't be Makers. If they do I would expect it to impart a little bit sweeter and more nutty whiskey flavor as bourbon will only use the barrel once in order to extract the most sugar etc... they can from the charred barrel. I would be looking at bourbons such as Woodford Reserve, Knob Creek, or Bookers. Personally I would want something in that range so that it is a smooth sweet taste without the "bite" that cheap whiskey can bring.
 
paulthenurse said:
And why bourbon over xyz?
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I'd say Scotch, in general, is much too smoky and minerally, and Irish and Canadian whiskies are too neutral. Bourbon will give you some vanilla, some caramel, some sweetness, and some spiciness. You might also consider an American rye whiskey, which will give you more spiciness and less of the vanilla and caramel notes.
 
paulthenurse said:
American white oak, right? What level of toast? I believe that whiskeys generally use a heavy toast but I'm not certain.

And why bourbon over xyz?
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Yup

Well, the toast of the barrel is going to be fairly heavy since it's charred, but I am not sure how that equates to toasted wood chips. I would probably bump it back a notch since when your aging in a used barrel a lot of the effects of the toasting will have been soaked up by the whiskey.

I only spoke to bourbon since that is what I know the most about. As far as what's best for your recipe hopefully others can fill in what flavors the other whiskeys are likely to impart and you can choose from there.
 
Bourbon must, by law, be aged at least two years in new charred white oak barrels. That's why bourbon has the heaviest and richest (but not necessarily most complex) flavor of the whiskies. Canadian, the "softest" tasting of the categories, is aged in uncharred barrels. Scotch malt is peat-smoked, and Scotch is stored in used barrels (often bourbon, but not always). Irish is rarely if ever peat-smoked, and I think it's usually or always stored in used barrels as well.
 
Because Bourbon must be aged in new charred oak barrels the bourbon distilleries discard (sell) alot of used barrels. This is the most likely source of Sam Adams barrels. Scotch distilleries use used barrels, many from Bourbon distilleries and will reuse the barrels if they are in good shape.

I would use a good Bourbon like Makers Mark, Woodford Reserve or even a Jim Bean or Jack Daniels.

Craig
 
I've made some near 20% beers before with some good results, so I totally encourage this project.

My only concern is your predicted mash efficiency of 80%. I don't know what kind of equipment you are using or if you've based this on previous big beers, but I think it's a bit high. I was routinely getting 75% efficiency with my normal batches, but on my bigger beers I was hitting 60% if I was lucky. Maybe because my water to grain ratio was lower to accommodate all the grain in my mash tun.

Just a thought. I'm certainly no expert.
 
paulthenurse said:
American white oak, right? What level of toast? I believe that whiskeys generally use a heavy toast but I'm not certain.
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Bourbon or Tennessee Whiskey is your best bet I think. American white oak heavy toast if you are buying cubes.

I bought some Jack Daniel's chips for $5 a 2# bag online, they are chopped up used JD barrels (and man, you could use them as an air freshener!). Take a torch to those, torch them until they catch on fire, then drench them with water, and you are good to go, this is essentially what they do to the barrels at the distillery. :)
 
CBBaron said:
Because Bourbon must be aged in new charred oak barrels the bourbon distilleries discard (sell) alot of used barrels. This is the most likely source of Sam Adams barrels. Scotch distilleries use used barrels, many from Bourbon distilleries and will reuse the barrels if they are in good shape.

I would use a good Bourbon like Makers Mark, Woodford Reserve or even a Jim Bean or Jack Daniels.

Craig
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Here is something that might help

"The silky, brandy-colored drink is a blend of liquids that have been brewed over the last 13 years, then aged in various woods, including bourbon casks. It's finished in sherry and Madeira casks."
 
My wife actually works for Boston Beer and I get a bottle of Utopias every time it is brewed (which is once every two to three years). The latest batch that I enjoyed last year was not all that smokey, in contrast it was very mapley. If you have any questions about how to replicate this brew I would encourage you to call Boston Beer and leave a message on the general line for Jim Koch. You would be surprised how cool that guy is and you might actually get a call back ( I know this b/c he actually called me back one time in reagrd to a question on Chocolate Bock).

I think you would not need more than 5% smoked malt for your clone but again you should just call them as Jim is a huge proponent of homebrewing as a culture.
 
Oh yeah one more thing. Boston Beer uses a yeast called "Ninja Yeast" for Utopias which is a proprietary yeast pioneered by Jim Koch himself (at least that's the story).

They also age utopias in casks for up to 2 years from what i recall. I sure wish you guys luck on this one.
 
What are the plans for this Paul? I'm still down to brew this with you guys. If you give me the word, I'll work on getting a 20 gallon barrel...
 
Getting.. impatient.. awaiting.. outcome.. :)

Other day I was daydreaming and awoke staring at Evan's Mephistopheles clone while this thread was in the other browser tab. I think it's a sickness. :eek:
 
We've had to back up one week to Jan 10th. Our local HBS didn't get the 099 in their last order, said the supplier dropped the ball. We won't be able to do our starter Barley Wine till this weekend so Jan 10th is the day. We will definately be taking plenty of pics. My partner is promising to drag the big screen tv and recliners out to the garage so we can watch the football games as we brew.
 
Our Barley Wine starter ( I come near to moistening myself every time I write that) had an OG of 1.099 and this morning is banging away like Ron Jeremy in a Convent.)

Come'on next weekend! The football viewing is going to suck (thank you very much Farverah and Mangina) but the brew day will be stellar!

PTN
 
paulthenurse said:
Our Barley Wine starter ( I come near to moistening myself every time I write that) had an OG of 1.099 and this morning is banging away like Ron Jeremy in a Convent.)

Come'on next weekend! The football viewing is going to suck (thank you very much Farverah and Mangina) but the brew day will be stellar!

PTN
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ya but if your team hadf played better you would'nt have needed the jets to win huh?
 
eriktlupus said:
ya but if your team hadf played better you would'nt have needed the jets to win huh?
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Played better than 11 and freakin 5 with 2/3 of the team (not to mention last years MVP) on the IR? I got no complaints here.

If any of you guys would have said that the Pats would have ended the season 11/5 when they were helping Brady off the field and a backup QB who hadn't played since High School was trotting onto the field, well, I want to buy you a ticket to Las Vegas next year and I'm coming along with my checkbook in hand.

PTN
 
I'd be hurt if you didn't show up, Al. All of you guys around here in the greater Boston area are welcome. And if anyone wants to come up from North Cakalacky or down form the NEK you are welcome, too. PM me for directions, it's at my buddies house right off the 495/140 area in Norton, MA.
 
paulthenurse said:
So which of the many types of whiskeys should I soak my oak chips in? Why? Should we do several small mason jars of different types of whiskey? What will the different whiskeys add to the flavor profile.

Help a brother out.
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Jonnio said:
I would be looking at bourbons such as Woodford Reserve, Knob Creek, or Bookers. Personally I would want something in that range so that it is a smooth sweet taste without the "bite" that cheap whiskey can bring.
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CBBaron said:
I would use a good Bourbon like Makers Mark, Woodford Reserve or even a Jim Bean or Jack Daniels.

Craig
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Honestly, I'd guess you'd want the caramel and sweet notes from the bourbon the most. My recommendation is Evan Williams. It's relatively inexpensive (compared to Makers, Woodford, and Knob Creek), very sweet and caramelly for a bourbon, but still good enough that you, PTN, could drink the rest of the bottle in a year or a week, whichever you prefer.

(incidentally, my brother-in-law, father-in-law and I killed an entire bottle of Stranahan's on Saturday. No it's not Bourbon, but it's an interesting whiskey)
 

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