Seems some people are very "intense" about their brewing practices

I'll start this by saying I'm a very new brewer. All of one brew under my belt still in the fermenter, getting ready to start another.

But I've noticed in this short time some very conflicting opinions on the "right" way to brew. This I totally get I mean a great many people it seems have been doing this for a long time and likely a majority are making some great beers. I just find it a bit amusing how animated and excited some people get about one point in the process or another.

For example, today I went to my LHBS to get supplies for my next batch. I mentioned to the shopkeep that I just took a gravity reading of my first brew (after a week) and it was at 1.017 (OG 1.060). He said it should be done and I should be racking to a secondary. I told him I wasn't going to bother with a secondary, wow did he get excited. Lectured me a bit on why I must use a secondary.

Now here is the thing, I'm not saying I know better then him, clearly my experience on the matter is nill. However I will say I've been studying all I can on homebrewing in the last few weeks. And I based my decision to do only primary on recomedations from Jamil from the Brew Strong podcasts and his assertion that it really makes no difference unless you plan on leaving it in the fermenter for a very extended lenth of time (over 4-6 weeks). Obviously a contested subject, but what made me chuckle was how adament he was that the only proper way to ferment was to use the secondary.

Some people care too much about what other people do. It's strange to me in all aspects of life. There are so many ways to make good beer that you just have to figure out what works best for you and get it down pat. My system is very simple, and quick, and works perfect for my situation, so I stick with it. If you stay in the hobby, you'll eventually be saying the same thing about the way you do things.

Everybody has an opinion for sure. I stopped using a secondary this year and the quality of my beer has only gotten better (probably just getting better in general, not just b.c I dont use secondary) ... I wonder if he even has tried it?

I dont know that I would have ever tried it on my own without guys on here suggsting it, but I typically trust peoples experiences over theory or opinion.

Had the very same thing happen at my LHBS, but honestly, just do a ton of reading online about it and you will see that secondary is overwhelmingly thought of as unnecessary unless you're adding fruit or something like that. I think a lot of those LHBS guys are old school brewers who have been doing things the same way for a long time and haven't really adapted with the times. Plus, they sell the secondary fermenters

Yep. I get lectured by my LHBS somtimes when I mention techniques like leaving in primary for 3 to 4 weeks. As a matter fact a few weeks ago I got this very lecture. I just nod my head and go on about my day.

I totally agree with you on your post. I recommend that you just do what you feel comfortable doing. That's the best thing about this hobby, you can try just about anything you want. You will almost 9 times out of 10 end up with a heck of a beer. Welcome to the club!!!

I'm just waiting for NorthernBrewer to stop putting the "Secondary" step in all their darn beer kit instructions just to have people posting asking if it's ok to not secondary LOL!! Seriously, with Northern being such a large and famous homebrew supplier you'd think they'd get with the times

Oh, and I've never secondaried and have made many phenomenal beers with just extract. I've only just recently moved to all grain.


Rev.

To understand the different brewing practices and brewing 'styles' it really helps to know the science behind them. If you understand their science you understand the cause of their effect, and are then able to manipulate the way in which you brew; to manipulate the process based on the desired outcome. Brewers take a lot of pride in their brewing process/style, learn from it and use what you can to make your beer great. It is interesting though, after all, the purpose of homebrewing is to produce beer that YOU want to drink.

MakeshiftBrew said:

If you understand their science you understand the cause of their effect

Click to expand...

Unfortunately that's not the case in this instance. In this situation we're talking about brewers that have learned to do a certain method and have always done it that way. They have never tried skipping the secondary to make a real "scientific" comparison. Instead, they spew the same old "supposed" knowledge and give old outdated and unproven reasoning. It kind of reminds me, though way off topic, of the old wives tale that shaving hair makes it grow in thicker and fuller. Well... I've been shaving my face since my teens and it's not some crazy thick furry bear carpet growing in now


Rev.

maybe he was trying to sell another carboy

Unfortunately that's not the case in this instance. In this situation we're talking about brewers that have learned to do a certain method and have always done it that way. They have never tried skipping the secondary to make a real "scientific" comparison. Instead, they spew the same old "supposed" knowledge and give old outdated and unproven reasoning.

Click to expand...

What I meant when I said

If you understand their science you understand the cause of their effect

Click to expand...

is that (perhaps) if you understood the science (in this case, of secondary fermentation) you may find that it is indeed unnecessary, or in other instances find that a method/practice is necessary, but with that be able to modify it or improve it based on your knowledge. This is true for many things. Obviously, brewing would not be as advanced as it is today without science. In essence it was a statement suggesting to learn a little science in order to understand why the brewing process is the way it is. That way next time someone makes a bias claim, you have a science backed filter ready to call bull ****.

An old school winemaker taught me how to make wine. He was very adamant about continually moving the wine once a yeast cake started. He seems to think that it "takes up space" in the secondary. Hell, he even got a little miffed when I came home with an auto-siphon. He was a firm believer in siphoning using tubing and starting with a vacuum. After he saw the siphon at work, he laughed and said what other goodies will I be bringing to make the job easier.

When I do beer, I let it sit in the primary for 2-3 weeks, check the gravity, if its done...bottle and wait 2 weeks. So much easier and like most say, less chance for infection and oxidation. and its easier.

I use a secondary vessel or rather a bright tank. Not because it is necessary for clearer beer but because my primaries won't fit in my fridge to cold crash. I have not used secondary and see really no difference except the cold crashing thing.
One thing I really like about the brew shop I go to is that they indulge and encourage trying new stuff. I was in the other day getting stuff for a kentucky bourbon barrel clone. The owner was there and asked what I was doing. I told him and he jumped right in helping out. GAVE me a barrel stave from knob creek, and told me which whiskey they used for KBBA. One of the workers and I spent a half hour or so balancing my magnets on a stir plate I built...Just a great bunch of people that love the craft I believe. SOO as an endorsement if you are close to KETTERING OHIO I recommend Belmont Party Supply and Brew Tensils.

I'm probably the queen of brewing in as many different ways as possible...extract/specialty grain..all grain...BIAB....No Chill.....too warm fermentation....controlled fermentation temps....splitting yeast between two 2.5 gallon batches...not making starters...etc...etc... the list goes on and on.
Do I make good beers? You're damn right I do...will they be award winners? Probably not....do I care? Not really.....as long as my friends and I enjoy them, thats what I'm brewing for....oh and its cheaper than spending 10.00 for a sixer of craft beer at the local liquor shop!!

Ibanous said:

I will say I've been studying all I can on homebrewing in the last few weeks. And I based my decision to do only primary on recomedations from Jamil from the Brew Strong podcasts and his assertion that it really makes no difference unless you plan on leaving it in the fermenter for a very extended lenth of time (over 4-6 weeks). Obviously a contested subject, but what made me chuckle was how adament he was that the only proper way to ferment was to use the secondary.

Click to expand...

And you thought he was "Intense"?

i secondary when adding fruit or when i need it to sit for a few months. do i get agitated over topics about brewing? not at all. i brew mine, and it tastes good to me and my friends. we're happy with it. nuff said

I secondary when I have something else to primary..which is usually after two to three weeks, but sometimes less than one week (but after making sure fermentation is done). (Also, I secondary in a sanitized keg and vent the oxygen...nothing better than that unfriendly to bacteria environment.)

I enjoy batch conditioning which really should be done with a secondary. Also, I find that I run out of primary buckets and transfer beer after about two weeks. They are great though if you want to lager, batch condition or keep your beer in a separate container to free up something.

I will also say though, you CAN make awesome beer with extract but I find it much easier to get great beer with all grain. It's a rare beer that I can't tell if it's made with a significant portion of extract. Of course there is a special case to this, imperial anything. I don't have the time, energy or money to do a non-DME extract but I use extra light and always add enough base grain to fully convert. Typically this isn't a problem but I have a hard time managing the sheer volume of liquid etc. that comes from doing an imperial.

Also, by and large, people do agree on about 90% of what to do, and almost 100% for what beginners should do. You can learn a lot from the forums, but books are definitely the way to go, it's how quite a lot of people here learned brewing, particularly more advanced techniques and recipe development. There are too many variables and options when designing a recipe for you or I to not have a guide or several who have tried out things which just didn't work.

I'm not 100% convinced on the no secondary.

However I think if I had more primary carboys I might change my mind.

I start in a bucket, rack to secondary usually about a week after pitching. I've tried a couple in primary bucket for the full process. I was not happy with either of the ones I left in a bucket.

All the ones I've put in a carboy primary I've left in the primary until the end. However the only ones I put in carboy to start are lower gravity brews. They tend to have less trash floating around in the wort and I don't strain them after the BK. All the higher >1.080 I've started in a bucket because I can easily strain the wort upon transfer. Then racked to secondary to get off the remaining trub. I've had great results save for the two I tried leaving in bucket for a month that turned out only marginally drinkable.

I don't care what others do. I'll be willing to offer my experiences if someone is looking for an answer to a question I've already evaluated in my own process. If you produce beer you enjoy drinking while using a primary only approach, stick with it, it works for you. If you produce beers you enjoy while using a secondary chamber, keep on with it, it works for you.

I'm very non competitive. I have zero interest in brewing to style or entering into competitions. I do have interest in brewing beverages I and my family/friends will enjoy. That's the basis for my brewing process. Save for a few experiments I've done I have yet to make a beer that I can't find someone that enjoys and requests it again.

jbsg02 said:

maybe he was trying to sell another carboy

Click to expand...

This^^^ If your not going to secondary than you really don't need a 5 gal. carboy. Unless you're doing smaller batches. Look at the kits all the HBS sell, deluxe always has the extra carboy and costs more. Now, as someone else pointed out most kit directions tell you to rack to secondary after a week or so. If, as a new brewer you bought the standard kit, then see directions telling you to secondary most people will run out and get one. Keep people thinking they need one, even to do a basic beer, and you'll keep selling them.

As homebrewing has expanded over the past several decades, by now it surely embraces an enormous number of individuals, living under a wide spectrum of environments and circumstances. With that, there's an almost limitless number of ways to take grain, water, yeast & hops and produce a glass of bubbly.

As for me, with limited access to any LHBS or homebrew clubs, the vast preponderance of my information has come from books, forums like HBT, and just the experience of brewing for four years. In that time, I have no hesitation in stating that I have my own ideas about brewing, and my processes are probably somewhat different from yours. And that's one of the things that makes brewing so fascinating. I've never seen an active forum on making brownies.

My brewing setup is strictly K.I.S.S., or as close as I can stay to that philosophy and still brew the beer I want. I mill my malt with a cheap Corona-type mill, I mash in a 10 gal. orange cooler, I boil in an inexpensive pot over a turkey fryer burner. My beer all ferments in the ubiquitous plastic bucket, with no secondaries except when required for bulk aging, and I bottle in 9" longnecks with crown caps. Pretty old-school, completely proven and inexpensive equipment. I just finished brewing the last on a schedule of seven batches of beer, and I have every expectation that they'll be great.

And that's the way I want it. I've had a certain number of pastimes over the years, but have never been able to adopt a "balls-out" approach to any of them. I don't care to build industrial-looking "brew sculptures," or pieces of furniture to mill grain or dispense beer. I have absolutely no urge to build separate rooms (or structures) to brew or drink beer in. The product is strictly for the enjoyment of myself, friends & family, no disposition to enter any contests or etc. Other people may do all or some of these things, and that's just fine & dandy, but don't evangelize me and tell me that's how I ought to do it.

There is room in our shared preoccupation (insanity?!?) for all types doing all sorts of things, and that's a big part of what keeps it the vital, evolving scene that is homebrewing. Keep it up, boys & girls.

People are passionate about these things. Chalk it up as a result of people enjoying what they do. I've seen such passion in motorcycling, welding, wood working, circuits, software, lion taming, and streaking.
Oddly enough never in tax time accounting. But that's irrelevant.

I say start an experiment. Do a quaternary(?) fermentation. Then go wow the guy.

Been doing this just under 1 year myself so still being a sponge. I have learned a ton from books, this forum and others. While there are some basic principles that remain the same, there are a number of methods to reach the end goal. Two of the most important things I have learned outside of the basics are:

1. If you like the beer you made, then you did it right.

and

2. RDWHAHB

Cheers!

I doesn't matter how you make the beer. What matters is do YOU like the taste. Just because somebody else does it differently, that doesn't mean they are doing it wrong if it gives them the taste THEY want. Some very experienced brewers have done side by side, long primary vs secondary batches. They concluded that yes the final products were different, however they were split over which one they liked better. The differences are more noticeable in some styles so that is a consideration as well.

Brewing is like cooking.

Ask 10 chefs to make chili, and they are all going to have their own recepies, subtle unique ingredients, and unique side processes, but in the end, they are all going to use the same base process with the same base ingredients, and the end result is going to be.....CHILI........no matter how different the unique elements may be!

There is no right way or wrong way as long as you acheive a good final product!!

Opinions are like you know what, we all have 'em. I did the same on the my first couple of brews but now tend to leave everything in the primary for at least 3-4 weeks. Unless I make a wheat beer then 2 weeks is the rule. I found that I made some pretty good beers that way and lessened oxydation and or more bacteria exposure. If it's stupid and simple but it works, it isn't stupid, it's just simple!

beerloaf

One of the most fun aspects of brewing is fiddling with technique and coming up with recipes.
My LHBS are a nice bunch of folks, but I generally avoid getting into "technique" discussions with them because (as many of you have said) everyone has their own opinion and without knowing what they brew and what the finished product tastes like - I'm not sure their advice is relevant to what I want to do.
Example - don't ask a guy who primarily brews IPAs and stouts about various Belgian yeast strains. They'll quote what they've read, or heard someone else say. (i.e. If I'm asking for advice, I'll ask it in a "so have you ever worked with ..... ?" "have you ever brewed a ....?" if they say no, then I'll back off from whatever detailed question I was going to ask.

Asking questions here is a lot more fun anyway

So yeah - experiment. Figure out what works for you. Take all advice with a grain of barley and enjoy the adventure! (I've found that racking to a secondary isn't really beneficial to me unless I'm making cider/cyser or working with fruit)

Rev2010 said:

I'm just waiting for NorthernBrewer to stop putting the "Secondary" step in all their darn beer kit instructions just to have people posting asking if it's ok to not secondary LOL!! Seriously, with Northern being such a large and famous homebrew supplier you'd think they'd get with the times

Click to expand...

I'd second that for other shops too. Even though I asked the question on here regarding how long to leave in my primary based on what the HBS shop said for primary and secondary (and it confirmed what I thought, just combine the times) I still started questioning the advice in my own head using the "well what if there is something about my specific recipe that the forum readers don't know" argument! Classic case of overanalysing!

pjj2ba said:

It doesn't matter how you make the beer. What matters is do YOU like the taste.

Click to expand...

I need to remember that. I read that banana aroma indicates fermenting at too high a temperature (and indicates it won't be good?). I've now smelt that coming out of my airlock and have convinced myself that I'm brewing swill. Now if I hadn't read it I'd just drink it and (hopefully) think "ooo, nice banana flavours!".

Tiredboy said:

I read that banana aroma indicates fermenting at too high a temperature (and indicates it won't be good?). I've now smelt that coming out of my airlock and have convinced myself that I'm brewing swill. Now if I hadn't read it I'd just drink it and (hopefully) think "ooo, nice banana flavours!".

Click to expand...

Hey, it's a reason why some people intentionally underpitch hefeweizens or ferment them at a high temperature. If you want a decent banana aroma/flavor, with the right yeast strain it's a great way to go.

I secondaried my first few brews. Now I'm honestly too lazy too. I'm a science guy. When I hear or read something portrayed as a fact (i.e. "You need to do this because..." as opposed to "I usually do this because...") I want evidence. If you want to offer your opinion, great. I'm all ears. Let's talk about it, tell me why you like doing it a certain way and if you've tried other ways that haven't worked. But don't tell me to "do something because", and then not have anything remotely credible to back it up.

There was a thread on here regarding autolysis. I've asked if there has been a single case study pertaining strictly to beer regarding yeast and autolysis. The answer? No... no one could find one. Will autolysis happen eventually? Maybe, maybe not. When will it happen? 1 month? 2 months? 2 years? No idea.. Well, that to me is not good enough. If I can produce amazing beer sitting on the same yeast cake for 4-6 weeks+ (and other brewers for MUCH longer), then you can take your unsubstantiated hypotheses elsewhere, while I make great beer. Can you make great beer other ways? Absolutely. But don't tell me I can't doing it a certain way, while having little more than theory to back it up. Less than a century ago the common "theory" was that the universe consisted of only one galaxy... our own. How well did that hold up?

The funny thing about all of this is that even though everyone seems to agree with the OP, many of the posts come off as pretty "intense" in their own right...

I made loads of "mistakes" and did things "the wrong way" but my beer turned out fantastic (details here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/getting-started-small-batches-caribbean-273914/#post3552917). Just goes to show RDWHAHB (even when its hard to do!)

The greatest leaps of technology and knowledge of all time wouldn't have been if it weren't for those that chose to try something different to come up with better ways of doing it. It goes that way with everything. I'm sure 5, 10, 20 years from now, people will look back at our process now and find better ways of doing things to brew that we may raise our nose up to because of the "difference" factor. To each their own. If you brew good beer, stick with the process that works for you.

One of the reasons I love HBT is that people are passionate about their beer. I think in part that explains why this place is such a great resources. Of course, passionate also means they're gonna be heated some times.

I've noticed that people are pretty good at picking up when someone's passionate about contributing to the community knowledge (extremely fruitful discussions like the one on generations of yeast re-pitches recently) as opposed to just being bull-headed or snarky. Sometimes those lines get crossed, but overall it seems like there's less of that here than in many forums I've seen!

It seems to me, that the primary argument for racking off the yeast cake is the prevention of autolysis. I know this is a concern for commercial breweries where the volume of vessels used, construct an environment where pressures are high enough to rupture cell walls. It is my opinion, based on what I have read and personal experience, home brewers do not need to worry about autolysis. I know that once I started listening to guys like Revvy and Unionrdr and left my beer in the primary for 3-4 weeks, my finished product has improved dramatically.

Next time you're in your LHBS talk about a subject less likely to cause such a reaction like politics or religion. Those are much safer bets than talking about the use or non-use of a secondary.

I could care less about peoples opinions about my beer, how I brew it, sample it, or whatever. I think its HILARIOUS the way people on this forum, or any other forum for that matter, get all bent outta shape over anything. If I want to try my beer one hour after bottling its on me.

Butter said:

I could care less about peoples opinions about my beer, how I brew it, sample it, or whatever. I think its HILARIOUS the way people on this forum, or any other forum for that matter, get all bent outta shape over anything. If I want to try my beer one hour after bottling its on me.

Click to expand...

I know what you mean, but I think sometimes people comment within the context of so many threads of "why is this beer bad", "did I ruin that beer" and so forth.

It's all good!

B