Lets Do This - 20 Gallon Concord 3 Vessel HERMS

BrunDog said:

I put in a 50A outlet in my garage. My panel is on the back "right" wall, and I put the outlet on the front "left" wall. Ran 50ft of 6/3. IIRC the cable was $145. The PVC conduit (drop from ceiling), outlet, enclosure, cover, staples, etc. were probably $45. The 50A GFCI outlet was a whopper at $150. So, materials alone were ~$350. Definitely busted my hump sweating bullets and squeezing through tight spaces in the attic, so $500 for labor doesn't seem that unreasonable for a few hours of work.

Wondering BTW why contractor's work needs be inspected but a neurosurgeon's doesn't? CraZy!

-BD

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Yea, but mines external conduit because there is a finished bedroom above the garage, so its literally screwing some U clamps every few feet to keep it suspended on the ceiling

Anyways back to the brewing, i decided to go with the silicon O-Ring route to seal my compression fittings for the herms coil, something about using the metal ones that clamp down and possibly partially collapse the tube scare me a bit, ok alot...that damn thing isnt cheap...the double O-Rings i use on my other compression fittings seem to work great. Problem is no one here sells it so i had to make a damn stupid order to Brewershardware for a bunch of them...$4 to ship me $6 of tiny O-Rings..oh well now i have 15 which should last me a life time.

For future reference, OringsAndMore.com is great.

BrunDog said:

Wondering BTW why contractor's work needs be inspected but a neurosurgeon's doesn't? CraZy!

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Because when a neurosurgeon crosses a wire, your body either heals itself or dies. It doesn't burn down 2 months later.

So while i wait for more quotes on my spa panel i decided to put together some cables, except somehow in my dirty ass car i lost the heat shrink so i cant finish them. The search continues tom tomorrow, then ill just buy more at the shop if necessary for a dollar.

They will be about 9.5' total each which should be more than enough, i wanted them to be 10' but the damn people who cut my cable cover stuff cut it short it seems, of course i dont realize this until i get home and put it on...oh well it should work fine. Only went with the cable shield thing because a local shop near me sells every cable known to man and also sells this stuff so i think i paid like $3 for 2 10' sections. Sometimes its the little things

The shielding I think really cleans it up. Nice touch

I swear im not mentally handicapped, but i spent a good 45 minutes trying to wire up my heating element wondering why it was so hard to get the wires around the posts, especially the grounding post of the HotPod element enclosure...only to realize i was supposed to be using my crimped on ring terminals...once i did that it was pretty easy. The whole time i was making small loops with the cable and then screwing down on that...oops!

The only thing i am not sure about is that the ring terminals are a bit bent because if the ring terminals come straight out of the element to the side, you cant screw the rear part of the hotpod back onto the element i found out. They are super snug and wont be getting tugged on due to the cable guard of the hotpod so I am not that worried about the connection. Once i had this realization i put the cable together in about 15 minutes.

Hoping i have 2 more quotes for my outlet here soon, i called a 4th company that i think understood what i was doing better. I swear as soon as i mention a spa panel in the garage they all are confused as **** and want to know what i am using it for, they all ask if im installing a hot tub in my garage...after i explain they understand to varying degree's. In the end i tell them "All i want is a 50A 4 Prong Dryer outlet installed in my garage on a wall directly across the garage from my breaker through conduit, how you do it whether its a 50A spa panel, or a 50A spa panel you harvest a breaker from to install in my main panel, or just find a good deal on a 50A GFCI breaker for my main panel i dont care, whatevers cheapest" For some reason this confuses them..i dont understand what I am saying thats so confusing.

If you call it a "50A Sub Panel" with internal GFCI rather than a Spa Panel they'll give you much less hassle

Well, second quote came in that i think had a pretty good idea of the job...1,450..what the **** how? Ugh now im worried the guy who quoted 850 doesnt even realize its through conduit and maybe thats why he was low?

Im not crazy thinking that both of these prices are crazy? I can see the 850 POSSIBLY but thats still on the high end when a 10' thing of 3/4" conduit is like 2.50 an a few of the gentle bed corner pieces are like $1.50 each. Spa panel is $60, main breaker is $10, like 30' of 6/3 cable is like $60, box and plug are like what maybe $30? Ugh i want to just do this myself but im worried i wont do it to code and ill end up spending $200 and having to gut it and call in a professional anyways...

I mean i have a pretty good grasp of the rules, bend radius's , how big the conduit needs to be for 6-3 cable, etc but I just know ill get dinged for small stupid things like "The spa panel cant be within 12 inches of your main breaker panel" or some other obscure rule i'd never know.

What i thought was going to be the easiest part of this entire build process is turning out to be the most frustrating.

FuzzeWuzze said:

Well, second quote came in that i think had a pretty good idea of the job...1,450..what the **** how? Ugh now im worried the guy who quoted 850 doesnt even realize its through conduit and maybe thats why he was low?

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DANG, I had a brand new Top of the line 60 circuit Eaton Breaker Panel WITH LIFETIME BREAKERS and whole house surge protection installed (Including a 50A GFCI wired for my brewing) for $1250... junked the old 16/32 panel that was maxed out, now I've got plenty of room for expansion

Check angieslist see if there's some deals on there, that's where I got my guys from... they were originally offering panel labelling + whole house protection for like $80 or so... one I told them no need to label the panel, they jumped at the chance of upgrading me

I'd put an ad up on Craigslist and see if any freelancers with certification want to walk you through it and sign it off in exchange for a keg of their favorite style.

SilverZero said:

I'd put an ad up on Craigslist and see if any freelancers with certification want to walk you through it and sign it off in exchange for a keg of their favorite style.

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^^This

SilverZero said:

I'd put an ad up on Craigslist and see if any freelancers with certification want to walk you through it and sign it off in exchange for a keg of their favorite style.

Click to expand...

I remembered my cousin I dont see often is an electrician about 3 hours away, too far to come and help but atleast he might be able to step me through some of it? We'll see.

On a non brewing related story, im pretty sure i avoided getting robbed and or murdered in a craigslist deal today. Showed up at some shady looking house with its roof caving in near the chimney in the "wrong part of town" to buy a running stroller for the misses and baby and this haggard old lady in her 70's or 80's with hair up and in a night gown smoking(think mother of serial killer in horror movies) comes out to meet me outside. I ask if this is where the stroller is because i was expecting some 30-40 something, and she said yes...then she tells me the owner dude is in the back and i should go around the side of the house to go see him, and makes some random comment about how she likes my car(its a 09 outback? I mean its a great car but no one tells me hey nice car, its Oregon every 3rd car is a Subaru outback.) Immediately my NOPE NOPE NOPE sense goes off and tell her to go get him and bring him out front(in public i was thinking). 30 seconds later she comes out and tells me hes on the phone with the police now because the stroller was stolen, all i could think was uh huh sure it was...20 minutes ago he told me where to meet him without even checking if the stupid stroller was there? She asked if i wanted to wait while he talked to the cops on the phone, i said sure and she went back to see him and i NOPED the hell out of there in my car before some crackhead with a gun came out front, all i could envision in my head was some dude with a laser scope peeking at me through their blacked out(newspaper) windows. In hindsight, the stroller was probably stolen in the first place if it ever existed, i cant see someone living in that house with a $400 running stroller selling it for as cheap as they were. Ah the joys of Portland...

Now onto the brewing questions...both cables made yay...


Now about wiring those cables...as i understand it, which hot goes to which element post doesnt matter, does that mean that it doesnt matter which goes where on the plug side too?

Also i ran a multimeter continuity test on it and came up with some confusing results, both cables are the same so i am guessing its right? But would like some validation.

Hot 1 - Hot 2 - BEEP
Hot 1 - Ground - Silent
Hot 2 - Ground - Silent
Ground - Element - BEEP
Ground - Enclosure - BEEP

Both of the continuity checks that beeped confused me a bit, why are the HOT1 and HOT2 lines both together? I guess it makes sense sort of? But i was confused why the element itself beeped when checked against ground.

Here is my mock layout of my panel, as you can see it is quite cramped and will make cable routing a giant biatch.


The small metal box on the bottom left is a 120V->5V power supply i am going to use to power the RPI since this is a StrangeBrew Build and i'd like to prevent needing to wire in a whole 120V outlet to power it, i want it to turn the RPI on when i power the main panel switch on. Far bottom right is a white breadboard i will use to wire up for the DS18B20's with the resistor needed and what not coming in from the XLR connectors. Top 3 are 2P 120V coil 40A contactors from Packard I found for a good price on Amazon, one will control main power, and the other 2 will control an element each(pretty standard?). And finally the board in the bottom right is my standard Sainsmart dual relay board im familiar with from my BrewPi build to power my Pump outlets.

I cant decide if i just want to do Wifi on the RPI(i have a USB wifi dongle it came with) or if i want to do ethernet hard wire. I'd rather do wireless if it will work reliably, but am trying to position the RPI in such a way i could get a ethernet cable in and wire it to a jack on the side of the panel if necessary.

PS - Its taking all of my willpower to not freak out about the small scatches im putting on my used stainless table as i move my pots around. I realize its just a fact of life but the side of me that wants it pristine looking screams every time i see it.

Looks great can't wait to see you fire it up!

Another thing I thought of, do people who use stainless tables still use cork board under their pots? I was wondering if the stainless table steals a lot of heat from the pot slowing temp changes?

I don't want to give wrong advice but I think the element posts should show continuity (beep) between each other because it's just a big resistor. It doesn't matter which pole goes to which terminal on the element, they're basically +120v and - 120v and it's AC.

SilverZero said:

I don't want to give wrong advice but I think the element posts should show continuity (beep) between each other because it's just a big resistor. It doesn't matter which pole goes to which terminal on the element, they're basically +120v and - 120v and it's AC.

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Correct. And you don't want either hot line to beep to ground because that's means you basically have a short. If the continuity test was done correct and the results are accurate then the wiring is correct.

Agree with joe's advice. I would put some type of thermal insulator underneath the pots. The table will be a large heat sink.

-BD

BrunDog said:

Agree with joe's advice. I would put some type of thermal insulator underneath the pots. The table will be a large heat sink.

-BD

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So just to clarify, the element itself(not the posts) should also beep when checking against ground?

FuzzeWuzze said:

Got the pots mostly plumbed up, turns out im one camlock short so ill have to goto the LHBS tommorrow. Hopefully tomorrow ill also do fill test's and finish calibrating my sight glasses and putting the vinyl stickers on them, then i need to drill the tiny holes for the upper hooks to hold the sight glasses in place. You can see the DS18B20 temp probes dangling out of the compression fitting...i had to cut the shrink wrap they put on them way back because it wouldnt fit through the compression otherwise. Also need to track down some isopropyl alcohol or something to get off the sharpie i used on my pots for the welder Im a little concerned about the gaps around the false bottom, but the pictures make them look worse than it is..but it also sits flat on the bottom and will filter through the side if any grain does sneak by the top so im not that worried. Waiting to take the plastic off the HERMS coil until im ready to start fill testing to keep from scratching it while moving crap around.

Whole Setup

Close Up Of Temp Probe

BK Outside & Inside

MLT Outside & Inside

HLT Outside & Inside

Last steps before Brew Day
- Wire up Elements
- Get 240V Socket installed to left of my table(So far had 2 electricians come out for a bid, neither has actually sent me a bid, contacting a 3rd tommorrow).
- Wire up my control panel
- Last thing i'll do is probably make my hoses once i have a good idea for how they will be used and can size them accordingly, i have a big 50' spool of it but hate to waste since its so expensive!

Click to expand...

Maybe I missed it but what holds the herms coil up above the heating element? Are they just supported where the tube mates up with the enter and exit fittings?

I may have to pick up three of these. I was pricing out Blichmann and holy crap 3 of those add up. I say some of these on eBay for under $100. Of course the blichmann ones already come with a valve, dip tube, thermometer and sight glass and then you can add just about any option but one would think you can add all to that yourself for around $700-$1000 less.

So the concord 20 gallon pots are only 18.? so gallons? Does this effect anything when doing 10 gallon recipes other than maybe a high gravity barleywine? I've never done a barley wine and don't know if I ever will so do I need not be concerned?

As long as the two legs show some continuity (it shouldn't be ~0 ohms) across them and open circuit (infinite ohms or no beep) from each leg to the ground terminal, you are good. The element itself it likely grounded as it is bonded to the base.

-BD

Paul_Aris said:

Maybe I missed it but what holds the herms coil up above the heating element? Are they just supported where the tube mates up with the enter and exit fittings?

I may have to pick up three of these. I was pricing out Blichmann and holy crap 3 of those add up. I say some of these on eBay for under $100. Of course the blichmann ones already come with a valve, dip tube, thermometer and sight glass and then you can add just about any option but one would think you can add all to that yourself for around $700-$1000 less.

So the concord 20 gallon pots are only 18.? so gallons? Does this effect anything when doing 10 gallon recipes other than maybe a high gravity barleywine? I've never done a barley wine and don't know if I ever will so do I need not be concerned?

Click to expand...

I haven't actually filled and measured mine, but there 17.5" internal diameter (maybe a tad more) and 19" internal height, I believe. That's 19.8 gallons to the brim according to my calculations. They're great pots for the money, especially when you can get them for 15% off like I did during a sale. Got 3 shipped for $307 or something like that. Contact the seller on eBay and tell them you want 3, they might give you a discount.

They aren't tall like some brew kettles so there may be more boil-off to calculate for but I love mine. I got the ones with the domed top. I kinda wish I'd gotten one of the other model that come with a steamer basket so I could rig a simple grain basket for the mash tun but I'll just fabricate a copper manifold.

If you're worried about boil over (and you should be, always) you should get a vial of fermcap. That and paying attention will save you a lot of trouble. It also helps to have a quick way to cut the boil (I'm still wondering if I want to install a knob control for mine instead of just the manual mode on my PID).

SilverZero said:

I haven't actually filled and measured mine, but there 17.5" internal diameter (maybe a tad more) and 19" internal height, I believe. That's 19.8 gallons to the brim according to my calculations. They're great pots for the money, especially when you can get them for 15% off like I did during a sale. Got 3 shipped for $307 or something like that. Contact the seller on eBay and tell them you want 3, they might give you a discount.

They aren't tall like some brew kettles so there may be more boil-off to calculate for but I love mine. I got the ones with the domed top. I kinda wish I'd gotten one of the other model that come with a steamer basket so I could rig a simple grain basket for the mash tun but I'll just fabricate a copper manifold.

If you're worried about boil over (and you should be, always) you should get a vial of fermcap. That and paying attention will save you a lot of trouble. It also helps to have a quick way to cut the boil (I'm still wondering if I want to install a knob control for mine instead of just the manual mode on my PID).

Click to expand...

Right now with my Keggle which holds 15.5 I only lose about 1.2 gallons to boil off over 60 minutes. I wonder if these kettles will be off a lot more or not enough to worry about.

SilverZero said:

I haven't actually filled and measured mine, but there 17.5" internal diameter (maybe a tad more) and 19" internal height, I believe. That's 19.8 gallons to the brim according to my calculations. They're great pots for the money, especially when you can get them for 15% off like I did during a sale. Got 3 shipped for $307 or something like that. Contact the seller on eBay and tell them you want 3, they might give you a discount.

They aren't tall like some brew kettles so there may be more boil-off to calculate for but I love mine. I got the ones with the domed top. I kinda wish I'd gotten one of the other model that come with a steamer basket so I could rig a simple grain basket for the mash tun but I'll just fabricate a copper manifold.

If you're worried about boil over (and you should be, always) you should get a vial of fermcap. That and paying attention will save you a lot of trouble. It also helps to have a quick way to cut the boil (I'm still wondering if I want to install a knob control for mine instead of just the manual mode on my PID).

Click to expand...

I did for my boil kettle to setup my sight glass, I measured by weight(8.34lb per gal) to be more precise than line markings on the side of a container. I got the 19 gallon line on and there's some space above it so it's so it's pretty close to 20 gallons at the brim I'd guess

The great wiring begins...i got everything drilled and mounted minus a few M4 screws i need to get tomorrow.



I moved everything around a bit more to make more sense, i moved the RPI up against the far wall and ill just be velcroing it there to the side in its case, this makes more sense as the top relay is the main power contactor which feeds down into the other contactors for each element. Im having to go a bit heavy (10 Gauge) for things like the coils even though i planned to use 14 Gauge because the spade connectors that fit the coil are the yellow ones, it will make the wiring a bit more of a PITA having to use such thick wire for the front panel but should be ok...i have a bunch of adhesive backed tie down things i can stick zip ties through to bundle all the cables up at choke points once i figure out where those are.

I am thinking about wiring my RPI to always be on if the box is plugged in, not just when the panel is turned on...thoughts? Then again i think keeping it on 24/7 might ruin this cheap 110V->5V power supply too fast now that i say it out loud. Regardless the power supply needs to also be near the top as it gets its power from the main contactor. You probably cant see it but the sainsmart relay is up on about 1/4" plastic risers to bring it(and its solder points on the bottom) up off the grounded back plate.

I like where the RPI is because ill be able to easily pull a cat5 cable and HDMI to the side there for some jacks if i decide to go that route, and its the biggest thing i have so its nice to have it up and out of the way a bit. Still trying to figure out exactly how all the wire routing will go, im going to try to keep it as nice as possible but with how cramped some things are its making it tough like the left bottom main power contactor pin you can see has to go around the bottom and then back up the top of the other contactor because its too tight of a bend to make...such is life it will work.

Im very loosely basing it off of PJ's diagram here


Except i wont have pump switches, the RPI (Elsinore) will be controlling those through the Relay board, also obviously im not using a PID, that will be replaced with the RPI as well, and all the lights are listed as 240V and mine are 120V so ill have to wire them accordingly....either way to my eye its a good representation atleast of how the contactors/LED/Switch/Outlets are wired together, oh and ill have no fuses...no space. Fingers crossed!

Paul_Aris said:

Maybe I missed it but what holds the herms coil up above the heating element? Are they just supported where the tube mates up with the enter and exit fittings?

I may have to pick up three of these. I was pricing out Blichmann and holy crap 3 of those add up. I say some of these on eBay for under $100. Of course the blichmann ones already come with a valve, dip tube, thermometer and sight glass and then you can add just about any option but one would think you can add all to that yourself for around $700-$1000 less.

So the concord 20 gallon pots are only 18.? so gallons? Does this effect anything when doing 10 gallon recipes other than maybe a high gravity barleywine? I've never done a barley wine and don't know if I ever will so do I need not be concerned?

Click to expand...

Yes its just held by the compression fittings, its pretty rigged and doesnt move or flex at all really even if i tip the pot upside down to get the remaining fluid out of the pot..i cant tell you if copper would be the same but these ones from Stainlessbrewing are top notch IMO so far...

But yes you could build one pretty cheap, you can see my total cost for the pods themselves in the first post. About 1k total for all 3 pots...assume if your doing weldless your probably looking at another $100 or so as those kits are more expensive than just a coupler.

This of course doesnt count the cost of tools, but really all you need is a hole saw or step bit and some lube you can get at Harbor freight for $8. Most of my tool costs are associated with my panel, which is still pretty cheap and will be about $300 total if i had to guess? , $400 if you count the tools i bought(like a ratcheting crimper, some new wire strippers a few other things like a cat5 crimper im not even using because i changed my panel build) I may put together a list to see what it actually cost if anyones interested in building their own Elsinore box. A lot of the cost is in the LED's and switches for the front panel of all things each LED is $10, as well as the $70 RPI of course, i got a my enclosure at 50% sale on Amazon ...

FuzzeWuzze said:

I am thinking about wiring my RPI to always be on if the box is plugged in, not just when the panel is turned on...thoughts?

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I am shopping parts for a control box very similar to yours, I will be keeping mine powered on all the time. The 5v power supply should be just fine, and having the RPI on all the time lets you do cool stuff!

FuzzeWuzze said:

The great wiring begins..Fingers crossed!

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You might want to consider sneaking in some 1-wire expansion ports (and wire 5v into the plug on one pin).

A 1-wire 2-channel breakout board is only $5
http://www.adafruit.com/products/1551?

Combined with a 2-channel relay board for $7
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E0NTPP4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

And a spare DS18B20 for $2
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CHEZ250/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


Would get you a $15 remote control head for your fermentation chambers or serving fridges.


<Edit>
Or I could actually read through your other posts and see you already have a brewpi for fermentation.

So as expected, cramming everything in that box is making wiring a bit more difficult than it probably needs to be.

I'm having to daisy chain my neutral wire between devices like the LED's and 110V outlet because i dont have room for a dedicated bus bar for neutral. I'll also have to do something similar for the ground.

Need to do some research on my LED's to see if it matters what goes to what connector? Its not labeled in any way to say HOT and Neutral...

Are the screws colored (brass/silver)?

I purchased cork matting material for underneath my pots and now I wish I had gone with rubber or neoprene mats. The cork gets wet and then it sticks to the undersides of my pots and then cork material gets ripped away. Invest in some rubber or neoprene mats and don't glue them to the tabletop.

LandoLincoln said:

I purchased cork matting material for underneath my pots and now I wish I had gone with rubber or neoprene mats. The cork gets wet and then it sticks to the undersides of my pots and then cork material gets ripped away. Invest in some rubber or neoprene mats and don't glue them to the tabletop.

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a plain sheet of floor underlayment or plywood works great too... not sure why people choose cork for this... doesnt it absorb moisture? plain wood cutting boards also work great. (like a pizza cutting board)

BrunDog said:

Are the screws colored (brass/silver)?

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I got the ones it looks like everyone else uses, including Kal, the American LED-gible 22mm indicator lights...both screws appear to be silver.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00C9O3OH6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

wire the leds either way, they don't use much juice so you can use 18+ gauge wire (Telephone wire would work)

BigFloppy said:

wire the leds either way, they don't use much juice so you can use 18+ gauge wire (Telephone wire would work)

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Yea im wiring most of the LED's and stuff with 14 gauge just because thats what i already have a spool of and lots of ring terminals.

But a lot of it im having to do 10 gauge because of how im having to connect things to my Contactors which use 10 Gauge quick connect pin things.

just don't use 14 ga wire for elements

I probably shouldn't go here but you should use appropriate wire for the job. Telephone wire should not be used for this application, independent of its application. IMO solid conductor should not be used anywhere in a control box.

-BD

FuzzeWuzze said:

Yea im wiring most of the LED's and stuff with 14 gauge just because thats what i already have a spool of and lots of ring terminals.

But a lot of it im having to do 10 gauge because of how im having to connect things to my Contactors which use 10 Gauge quick connect pin things.

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the leds draw less than an amp... even 14 g is way overkill really but if its going to have 240v going through it the insulation matters more. I believe 18 awg is the smallest wire rated for such use.. but I believe kal proved that wrong with the rating of telephone wire.

BrunDog said:

I probably shouldn't go here but you should use appropriate wire for the job. Telephone wire should not be used for this application, independent of its application. IMO solid conductor should not be used anywhere in a control box.

-BD

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Why not? its no different that using it in any other electrical box with a breaker or switch in it? Do you do think you need to make your panel see a lot of vibration? do you open yours up and constantly move the wires around? in all other aspects I believe telephone wire is rated for up to 300v or something close and certainly can handle the .01 amp draw of an led indicator light.

My box is permanently mounted on a wall as they would be in any professional installation like a factory unless it was mounted directly to some heavy machinery which caused vibration I dont see the issue with it myself but hey just my 2 cents.

So decided to start over on wiring, i think i need to be following something like this diagram more


I also didnt like how things were going, too many connectors banging into eachother because of how close i put the contactors. So now im back to something like this



My question now is, if the right two contactors are feeding my outlets at the bottom, what is the risk if any of routing the two hot lines down past the Mechanical relay and power supply? Do i have any chance of screwing with the relay/PS running such high current cables over or near them to get to the outlets?

FuzzeWuzze said:

So decided to start over on wiring, i think i need to be following something like this diagram more

I also didnt like how things were going, too many connectors banging into eachother because of how close i put the contactors. So now im back to something like this

My question now is, if the right two contactors are feeding my outlets at the bottom, what is the risk if any of routing the two hot lines down past the Mechanical relay and power supply? Do i have any chance of screwing with the relay/PS running such high current cables over or near them to get to the outlets?

Click to expand...

as long as you are using the correct type of wire designed for the correct voltage you will be fine with the wires touching on another... if you were going cheap (short runs of 14 awg will work in a control panel but the wire will get warm and could cause issues with the insulation down the road ) I dont recommend skimping just as much as I dont see the point in overkill since it costs more and makes it harder to run the wires...

My control box is 12x12x8 and its very tight with a lot of wires crossing and touching each other....I think we had this discussion before when you were saying you thought you didnt need a bigger box right?