Researching simple Pilsner recipes

I wish to attempt my 1st lager next week, hoping it can be ready for a dutch friend's birthday party on July 19th. The beer is to be his birthday present, but will be shared by all. His favorite beer is Pilsner Urquell and he prefers Bohemian/Czech style beers. He also has mentioned that he enjoys pilsners with a little higher hoppy flavor.

I am researching recipes to match my friend's pallate. As this will be only my 2nd ever all grain batch, I'd like to keep the brewing day as simple as possible so I don't screw it up. Therefore, I'd like to avoid decoctions & other stuff I don't quite fully understand yet. I have no special brew rig & would prefer to do a simple batch sparge.

I plan to primary at 50F for 2 weeks, then lager in a refrigerator at 40F for 6 weeks, then bottle it and condition at 75F for 5 weeks.

Here are 2 links to recipes that I am considering right now. I'd appreciate any advice on making this style of beer. Like how much attention should I give to the water, etc. If you have what you think would be a better recipe then please share.

Thanks in advance.

Czech Pilsner consideration #1: http://www.tedbrews.com/2007/02/czech-pilsner-conception.html

Recipe consideration #2:

Grains: 10 lbs Durst Pils 1.6L
.25 lbs Briess Carapils 1.4L
.25 lbs Durst Vienna 3.8L

Hops: 3 oz Saaz 3.4% AA 60 min
1 oz Saaz 3.4% AA 15 min
1 oz Saaz 3.4% AA 2 min

Yeast: Wyeast 2001 Urquell 2 pint starter made 3 days prior

Misc: 1 tsp Irish Moss 15 min

Mash: 12 qts at 149F for 60 min
2 gallons at 175F for mash out

Sparge: add 3 gallons at 180F, stir & rest 10 min.

Total preboil volume: 6.8 gallons
Target volume into primary: 5.5 gallons

I've never made one, so I'm not help at all with the recipe. But, this month's BYO has a long article on Bohemian pilsners, and a recipe. If you can pick up a copy, or read it online, that would probably be a great resource.

I don't know if 2 weeks would be long enough for a primary, and if you'd need a diacetyl rest. I'd plan a little longer in primary, longer lagering and less time at 75 degrees. What made you choose 5 weeks at 75 degrees?

I know you want something simple, but I highly recommend doing separate beta and alpha amylase rests to maximize body without sacrificing a dry finish. Despite what certain domestic breweries want you to believe, a true Pilsner has some good body on it.


TL

YooperBrew said:

What made you choose 5 weeks at 75 degrees?

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Targeting the July 19th release date. My house will probably be about 75F for bottle conditioning in the summertime. I've read lagers can take longer to carbonate due to the extended time lagering in the secondary at cold temps. So if 3 weeks is minimum, 5 weeks should be fine no?

TexLaw said:

I know you want something simple, but I highly recommend doing separate beta and alpha amylase rests to maximize body without sacrificing a dry finish. Despite what certain domestic breweries want you to believe, a true Pilsner has some good body on it.


TL

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Do you have anywhere to point me to for researching how to perform said rests? I'll look into it.

My typical mash schedule for Euro lagers is to mash in at ~130 F for 10-15 min. for a protein rest, then up to 148-9F for 45 min. saccharification (favoring Beta amylase), then up to 158 F for 15 min (favoring Alpha amylase). Then mash out. In theory the last step should give me some dextrins to help in body. This is my first year brewing a bunch of lagers and the samples I've pulled from the keg have been very encouraging. Definitely some body there.

I think the little bit of Vienna is good. It'll add a little color, which is typical of the style compared to other Euro lagers. One of these days I'll try a decoction.

Ok after further research, I see decoction mashing is not so difficult, just another step in the process.

I have an email out to my LHBS to get the SNR of their Bohemian style malt. I'll then choose a protein rest, then a second rest for the beta, and a final for the alpha.

Sound like I'm on the right track?

The tuba man pretty much nailed it. I do my beta rest around 146-149 and my alpha rest sround 159-161, pushing the extremes a little more when I want to maximize body.

Darryl Richman's Bock (in the Classic Beer Styles Series) has some excellent discussion of mash chemistry around here. I imagine you could do a little web searching and come up with some good info, and I know you can find some from Kaiser's posts both in the forum and the wiki.


TL

Thanks guys, keep it coming.

Off to study, study, study...I only have until next Thursday (brew day).

I think that Recipe #2 will be good. I made practically the exact same beer a couple times without the Vienna malt, and I used WLP810 yeast and everyone loved it. Also, I think if you're using 10# of Pilsener Malt, then you probably don't really need the CaraPils either. I think if you go with just 10# Pilsener you're going to be very happy with how it turns out.

One other thing about making a good Pilsener... after you condition/carbonate then plan on another 5-6 weeks if not even another couple of months in the fridge to let the chill haze settle out, and you'll have a beer that not only tastes wonderful is sparkling and clear and just looks fantastic, people won't believe you made it.

Mutilated1 said:

One other thing about making a good Pilsener... after you condition/carbonate then plan on another 5-6 weeks if not even another couple of months in the fridge to let the chill haze settle out, and you'll have a beer that not only tastes wonderful is sparkling and clear and just looks fantastic, people won't believe you made it.

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With the target date for drinking at July 19th, I think I'd be hard pressed to accomplish this goal. Do you have a recommended schedule with a brew date of sometime during next week?

well you can certainly still drinking it, but it really will look at lot better the longer you can hold on and keep it in the fridge.

you might double up a bit on the Irish Moss in your wort and see if that doesn't help the chill haze somewhat. I'm told if you can chill your wort quickly that it will minimize the chill haze you see later, but I don't have much luck with that even though I chill pretty quickly already.

By the way, I also like recipe #2 better (except for the mash schedule).

That protein rest also will help quite a bit with any potential chill haze problems.


TL

The article in BYO that Yooper mentioned is a good resource. I read part of it this morning. I made a BoPils earlier this year and it's currently lagering. Jamil has a good podcast on it as well.

One of the suggestions in the BYO article is to use a little acidulated malt to help bring the wort pH down. Also, I would recommend using very soft water. I split my water with 50% RO and 50% filtered tap water. The low mineral content helps give it a soft mouthfeel and rounder body.

Thanks guys, research continues....I like the 50/50 RO vs. filtered tap idea also. I will plan on that unless there are others with better idea for water.

I guess I'll have to bite the bullet & subscribe to BYO online...can't read too much about brewing can you?

p.s. Just picked up the Pilsner Urquell yeast from LHBS....starter will be started on Thursday or Friday for next week's use. The clock ticks as I absorb.

Is this going to work?

11 lbs. Bohemian Pilsner Malt

http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?cPath=178_21_71_110&products_id=2261

0.25 lbs. Carapils
0.25 lbs Vienna

Total grain bill = 11.5 lbs.

- Mash in 11.5 qts. water at 142F for 15 min. protein rest starting at 131F (water to grain = 1 qt. / lb.)

- Infusion of 4 qts. boiling water to step up to 149F starting point for 45 min. Beta-amalyse saccrification rest (water to grain now at 1.35 qt. / lb.)

- Second infusion of 4 qts. boiling water to step up to 159F starting point for 15 min. Alpha-amalyse saccrification rest (water to grain now at 1.7 qt. / lb.)

- Drain mash tun (19.5 qts. - 2.5 qts (lost to absorption) - 0.16 (deadspace) = 16.8 qts to boil kettle from 1st runnings (4.2 gallons)

- Add 2.5 gallons 180F sparge water, wait 5 min. then drain to kettle

Total boil volume = 4.2g + 2.5g = 6.7 gallons pre boil
Estimated preboil gravity = 1.042

Post boil volume expected to be 5 gallons (from previous experience)
Estimated post boil gravity = 1.051

- Add 0.5 gallons pre-boiled water to get 5.5 gallons into fermenter
Estimated diluted gravity = 1.046

I realize I will need to use my 60 qt. mash tun instead of the 20 qt. one. I'd like to shoot for 1.050 into the fermenter though. Is it worth adding some light DME to go from 1.046 to 1.050 ?

How does the mash schedule look? Feesible? or feeble?

Hops schedule:

1 oz. Saaz pellets 7.5% at 60 min.
0.5 oz. Saaz pellets 7.5% at 30 min.

2 oz. Saaz leaf 2.7% at 15 min.
2 oz. Saaz leaf 2.7% at 5 min.

Total estimated IBU = 43

I think that's a bit heavy on the late addition hops. This looks more like an IPA hop schedule, than one for a Bohemian pilsner. Me personally, I'd cut the the 15' addition to 1/2 oz and the 5 min. to 1/4 oz. I'd maybe up the 30' addition to 1 oz. Of course this is all if you are looking to be somewhat to style.

Quote fro OP
"I wish to attempt my 1st lager next week, hoping it can be ready for a dutch friend's birthday party on July 19th. The beer is to be his birthday present, but will be shared by all. His favorite beer is Pilsner Urquell and he prefers Bohemian/Czech style beers. He also has mentioned that he enjoys pilsners with a little higher hoppy flavor."

Try a Classic American Pilsner(there were good pilsners in the US before Prohibition). They are easy, very tasty, will expose people to a different style and should be done well in time for the party. Like this
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=58661

pjj2ba said:

I think that's a bit heavy on the late addition hops. This looks more like an IPA hop schedule, than one for a Bohemian pilsner. Me personally, I'd cut the the 15' addition to 1/2 oz and the 5 min. to 1/4 oz. I'd maybe up the 30' addition to 1 oz. Of course this is all if you are looking to be somewhat to style.

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Yeah, I just assumed since the Saaz leaf I have is only 2.7% that there needed to be more of it to provide flavor/aroma. If not, then I wouldn't mind jacking those down a bit. Perhaps 1 oz each which brings the total IBU estimate down to 39.

Beersmith tells me the IBU range for this specific style of beer is between 35-45 IBUs.

I didn't think my original estimate of 43 IBUs would be considered out of style.

niquejim said:

Quote fro OP
" He also has mentioned that he enjoys pilsners with a little higher hoppy flavor."

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I remembered that, and assumed since he's talking about pilsners, he really means more bitter (more highly hopped), like a Jever pils (44 IBU) vs a Bitburger (35 IBU), vs a BMC (~12 IBU). Jever is quite highly hopped - it's the highest hopped lager I've had and is very nice. I does not have much in the way of hop aroma though.

Yeah, I just assumed since the Saaz leaf I have is only 2.7% that there needed to be more of it to provide flavor/aroma. If not, then I wouldn't mind jacking those down a bit. Perhaps 1 oz each which brings the total IBU estimate down to 39.

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When it comes to flavor, and particularly aroma, you really don't want to concern yourself with the AA% content of the hops. That is there primarily to guide your bittering additions. Generally an ounce of a low AA% hop will add just as much, if not more aroma than a high AA% content hop. The aroma is not from the AA's.

Beer Tools has these hop additions for a Bitburger clone (35 IBU)
1 oz. Northern Brewer (Pellets, 8 %AA) boiled 60 min. (bittering additions)
.5 oz. Perle (Pellets, 7 %AA) boiled 15 min. (flavor addition)
.5 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh (Pellets, 3.9 %AA) boiled 5 min. (aroma addition)

This is very typical for a European pilsner. If your friend likes more bitterness, using the above example, I'd add in a 0.5- 1 oz addition at 30 min. If you add too much hops all at 60 min. the bitterness could end up too harsh. I think your 60 and 30 min. additions look fine as you originally posted, maybe up the 30 min. to 0.75 oz. Then go with something like in the Bitburger for 15 and 5 min. - with your Saaz.

If you friend likes lots of hop flavor and aroma, then just brew him an IPA.

Here's a good chart to help guide your hop usage

Thanks. He did mention he loved Jever as well.

So here's the new schedule.

1 oz. Saaz 7.5% pellets at 60 min.
0.75 oz. Saaz 7.5% pellets at 30 min.

0.5 oz. Saaz 2.7% leaf at 15 min.
0.5 oz. Saaz 2.7% leaf at 5 min.

Total IBU = 42


** Can anyone comment on my mash schedule?

The mash schedule looks fine. As far as adding the DME, I'd wait and see what your pre-boil gravity is (make sure you cool the sample, or correct for temperature) and then decide if you need it or not. It is not unusual to end up missing your pre-boil target volume, especially if you are new to AG.

Thanks again.

Would you suggest a double batch sparge using equal volumes of remaining water? Instead of 2.5 gallons one time, do two separate 1.25 gallon sparges? Or stay with one?

I'd do whichever you felt like. Some folks do one, others do two. It partly depends on your set up and your ease of doing the vorlauf. It is easier with some set ups than others. I've switched to two smaller sparges now that I have a pump. I drain fairly fast which encourages a stuck mash (via compaction). I don't do a complete drain. When the flow starts to slow, I stop, add the next batch of water, mix, vorlauf and then drain.

It depends on how much time you want to spend. You might get a better efficiency with two sparges. It will take more time though.

With a batch sparge method won't I simply drain as fast as the tun lets me? Or should I be limiting the flow with my valve?

With the pump I can go faster than gravity! When I was using gravity, I did slow it down a bit to avoid compaction of the grain bed. From what I hear others saying, 15 -30 min. is typical for a drain time.

I sure as heck do not take 15-30 minutes to runoff when I sparge. For my first runnings, I start running slowly to vorlauf and then increase the flow rate as the beer clears. By the time I am ready to actually collect thr runnings, I have the valve wide open. It drains as long as it needs to. I do the same thing when I sparge.

I do split my sparge, also.


TL

Ok, so I'm set on my recipe, set on the hop schedule, and set on the mash schedule and water amounts. Now let's talk water.

I'm reading water plays an important role in lager style beers. I have a whole house filter that is only used for my brewing water. Not sure how that affects the original levels.

Here's my local water report.

pH: 7.5
Total Alkalinity: 283
Total Hardness: 361
Calcium: 87.5
Magnesium: 23.8
Sodium: 26
Sulfate: 51
Chloride: 40
Bicarbonate: 335

Further research shows Pilsner uses extremely soft water. From howtobrew website, a Pilsen should be:

Ca: 10
Mg: 3
Na: 3
SO4: 4
Cl: 4
HCO3: 3

Using Beersmith tool I plugged in my local water of 0.75 gallons and 6 gallons of distilled. The results were this:

Ca: 9.7
Mg: 2.6
Na: 2.9
SO4: 5.7
Cl: 4.4
HCO3: 37.2

The only large discrepancy after the dilution is the HCO3 at 34 ppm higher than pilsen. Would 6 gallons distilled & 0.75 gallons of filtered local water be ok ? Or should I just go 50/50 or not bother?

That's pretty hard water! Definitely not good as is for light lagers - leads to a harsh bitterness. My water is a similar. I've used 4 gal distilled + 3 gal. of tap and while not as soft as Pilsen's water I was pleased with the results. The Pilsner styles from Germany have harder water than that of Pilsen so good lagers can be brewed with harder water than Pilsen.

If you want to do the 6:0.75 that would probably be fine. I've never brewed with water that soft. Maybe someone else will chime in. I wonder if the fermentation might be slower as the salts are used by the yeast. Maybe a even larger starter would be in order.

German pilsners are brewed with harder water, but they also are not as hoppy as Czech ones.

That water looks like Houston water, with those crazy high carbonates. You can preboil your water to get them out. Just bring it up to a boil for a few minutes, cut the fire, let it cool (it helps to let it sit overnight), and then siphon the water off the sediment. Leave an inch or so of water in the boiling vessel, just in case.


TL

Can't I just dilute with 5 gallons distilled? I don't mind buying the water all that much.

TexLaw said:

German pilsners are brewed with harder water, but they also are not as hoppy as Czech ones.

That water looks like Houston water, with those crazy high carbonates. You can preboil your water to get them out. Just bring it up to a boil for a few minutes, cut the fire, let it cool (it helps to let it sit overnight), and then siphon the water off the sediment. Leave an inch or so of water in the boiling vessel, just in case.


TL

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Will this pre-boiling procedure also reduce other mineral content of my tap water? or just the carbonates?

Tomorrow is brew day and I'm making all necessary preparations. My intention is to use 5 gallons distilled vs. 1.75 gallons filtered tap (pre-boiled?). With the high dilution with distilled I want to be careful not to remove too much mineral content from the 1.75 gallons of filtered tap water.

I believe it's calcium carbonate that precipitates out, so you can expect to lose some calcium, as well.


TL

Calculating my water requirements. Which online calculator is most accurate?

After plugging in my intended numbers into Beersmith and other online calculators including from Rackers.org and TastyBrew.com, I get 3 different volume results at each rest temp. step.

Who is most accurate between the 3 calculators?

Here's my planned mash:

- Pre-heat Mash Tun with 150F water for 15 min.
- Infuse the 11 lbs. of 75F grain to 126F & hold for 10 min.
- Assume a 1F drop to 125F over 10 min.
- Infuse from 125F to 143F with 210F water & hold for 45 min.
- Assume a 3F drop to 140F over 45 min.
- Infuse from 140F to 159F with 210F water & hold for 15 min.

- Drain tun (assume 0.132 gallons grain absorption + 0.218 gallons deadspace)
- Batch sparge using 2 equal volumes (6.75 gallon pre-boil target)

** Water boils at 210F at my altitude
** 60 qt. mash tun weighs 11.5 lbs.
** Starting with stiff infusion at 1qt/lb on 1st rest, targeting < 2qt/lb by 3rd step

Here's what Beersmith gives me:

- Infuse with 11 qts. (2.75g) for 126F target
- Brewsheet says 135.3F strike water
- Strike/infusion calculator says 138.4F strike water

- Add 0.72 gallons (2.88 qts.) of 210F water to go from 125F to 143F (using the adjust mash tool)

- Add 0.93 gallons (3.72 qts.) of 210F water to go from 140F to 159F (used mash tool)

Total water volume used = 2.75g + 0.72g + 0.93g = 4.4 gallons (17.6 qts)

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Here's what Tastybrew.com gives me:

- Initial strike of 2.75 g at 136.2F to reach 126F rest target (assumes no loss to tun)

- Infuse with 0.875 gallons (3.5 qts) of 210F water to go from 125F to 143F

- Infuse with 1.55 gallons (6.2 qts) of 210F water to go from 140F to 159F

Total water volume used = 2.75g + 0.875g + 1.55g = 5.18 gallons (20.7 qts)

** Why the large discrepancy between Beersmith's 17.6 qts. and TastyBrew's 20.7 qts???

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Here's what Rackers.org gives me:

- Initial strike of 139F is required for 75F grain at 1qt/lb to reach 126F target (I assume this does not account for a pre-heated tun? If not, then what start temp. does this calc. assume for the tun?)

- Infuse with 0.85 gallons (3.4 qts.) of 212F water to go from 125F to 143F (calc. assumes 212F is boiling temp.)

- Infuse with 1.48 gallons (5.9 qts.) of 212F water to go from 140F to 159F (used 1.31 qt/lb mash thickness; 11 qts. strike + 3.4 qts. from last infusion)

Total water used = 2.75g + 0.85g + 1.48g = 5.08 gallons (20.3 qts)

** This is also much higher than the 17.6 qts. from Beersmith's results.

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In conclusion, which calculator should I trust with my mash volumes to reach the different targeted step temps?

Of course I will adjust as needed.

So much for simple. Mashing right now at 140F for the beta amalayse sacc. rest. So far it's been difficult to hit my step temps. using the amounts given to me with the online calculators.

I was about 4F too high for the protein rest & added about half gallon distilled to get down to 129F.

I was about 4F too low for the beta amalayse rest & had to add about 1/4 gallon boiling to get up to 141F.

Now I'm left with very little water to complete my mash without going too thin. A quandry since I have to hit 158F for next step. I may do a decoction on the fly to get there.

Whew! I was a little worried during the mash, but the 2nd batch sparge resulted in 1.020 gravity. Never did reach 159F as planned....more like 154F.

Final OG into the fermenter was 1.053 & I cooled it to about 55F before pitching the 50F yeast.

We'll see what happens.

Sounds like a brewday.

It also sounds like it will come out nicely.


TL

I ended up trying a make shift decoction where I added 2 qts. of the mash to the remaining water I was going to use to hit the alpha amalayse step at 159F. I boiled the 2 qts. along with the water & then added to the mash. By the end of the mash I had added so much water I was a little over 2 qts./lb. I held 154F at the end for about 20 min.

Hope I didn't screw things up. Gravity seemed ok & about 14 hrs. after pitching cold I see Krausen.