Scaling recipes to account for volume AND efficiency

I am making a spreadsheet that does all my calculations for me in order to learn everything I can. I know Beersmith and other programs are readily available, but I figure building my own will help me understand the questions "Why this, or why that?".

I'm getting confused in making my "Recipe Scaling" section. I'm scaling forvolume first, then for efficiency. Ive read a few posts and articles on the subject, but still had some questions.

An example:

Here is Lil Sparkys Nut Brown. Its a 5.5 gallon batch and his efficiency is 70%.

Marris Otter 9.00 lbs 76.60 %
Flaked Oats 1.00 lbs 8.51 %
Crystal 60 1.00 lbs 8.51 %
Victory 0.50 lbs 4.26 %
Chocolate 0.25 lbs 2.13 %

My recipe is for 2.25 gallons and 78% efficiency.

First, scale to the 2.25 gallons:

Marris Otter = 9.00 lbs x (2.25 gal / 5.5 gal) = 3.68 lbs
Flaked Oats = 1.00 lbs x (2.25 gal / 5.5 gal) = 0.41 lbs
Crystal 60 = 1.00 lbs x (2.25 gal / 5.5 gal) = 0.41 lbs
Victory = 0.50 lbs x (2.25 gal / 5.5 gal) = 0.205 lbs
Chocolate = 0.25 lbs x (2.25 gal / 5.5 gal) = 0.102 lbs

Pretty simple. Now to account for the increase in efficiency (70% to 78%) I scaled back EVERYTHING:

Marris Otter = 3.68 lbs x (.70 / .78) = 3.304 lbs 76.60%
Flaked Oats = 0.41 lbs x (.70 / .78) = 0.367 lbs 8.51%
Crystal 60 = 0.41 lbs x (.70 / .78) = 0.367 lbs 8.51%
Victory = 0.205 lbs x (.70 / .78) = 0.184 lbs 4.26%
Chocolate = 0.102 lbs x (.70 / .78) = 0.092 lbs 2.13%

Doing it this way keeps everything the same percentages as the original, which is what I have read that most people do (and is the correct way). Ive also read where some just add or subtract the base malt in order to account for the new efficiency.

However, given that efficiency is related to extractable sugars and the base malt supplies the majority of those, should I be keeping the malts that are more for flavor and color the same as the 2nd step (where I went from 5.5 to 2.25 gal)? Those would be choc and crystal 60. I believe victory needs to be mashed. I know the differences are tiny, but I'm trying to nail it.

If you are scaling for volume, then it makes sense that its just a ratio of your volume vs the original recipe volume. But, if you are scaling for efficiency, then it seems to me that more needs to be taken into account than just another ratio.

If you are scaling for efficiency, then you are scaling for your gravity. In turn, you are not scaling for flavor and color, as these don't contribute to the gravity of the wort.

In the end.....If a malt doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on the gravity, then should it be scaled in the same efficiency ratio as the base malt?

I hope this is making sense. It sounds a lot better in my head.

Spreadsheet with calcs attached. Its the "Recipe Adjustment" tab.

View attachment Nut Brown 2_xml.xml

In thinking about it further, would this not apply to Hops also?

The original 5.5 gallon Lil Sparky Nut Brown calls for:

1 oz @ 60 Min of 4.5% Fuggles
1 oz @ 15 Min of 5.0% EKG

My hops have different AA% (Fuggles are 4.7% and EKG is 6.3%), so convert for same 5.5 gallons

Fuggles = (4.5% * 1 oz) / 4.7% = 0.96 oz for 5.5 gal
East KG = (5.0% * 1 oz) / 6.3% = 0.79 oz for 5.5 gal

Now that the new AA% is applied, then scale to 2.25 gallons:

Fuggles = 0.96 oz * (2.25 gal / 5.5 gal) = 0.39 oz for 2.25 gal
East KG = 0.79 oz * (2.25 gal / 5.5 gal) = 0.32 oz for 2.25 gal

This is the conversion Ive seen for all hops, whether 60 minutes or 0 minutes.

Now, assume both the 2.25 gal batch and the 5.5 gal batch have a 1 gallon/hour boil off rate and the same 1.054 OG.

Using Brewersfriend IBU calculator I get the following:

Boil Size = 6.5 gal
Batch Size = 5.5 gal
OG = 1.054

Fuggle (4.5% @ 60 min) = 16.16 IBU
EKG (5.0% @ 15 min) = 8.91 IBU
Total IBUs = 25.07
---------
Boil Size = 3.25 gal
Batch Size = 2.25 gal
OG = 1.054

Fuggle (4.7% @ 60 min) = 17.34 IBU
EKG (6.0% @ 15 min) = 9.46 IBU
Total = 26.8 IBUs

As time goes on, the IBUs dont matter as much because less oils are extracted. The difference bw the 60 min additions is 1.18 IBUs and the difference bw the 15 min additions is .55 IBUs. If you change both of the 15 min additions to 5 minute additions, then the IBU difference is .22 IBUs.

Those IBU differences really don't make that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. I doubt anyone can tell the difference between a 25 IBU beer and a 26 IBU beer......

But, in order to accurately convert hops by batch size, should I focus on converting the longer boil time hops by IBUs as opposed to weight, and convert the shorter boil time hops by weight (as the way everyone does).

I've seen a lot of threads on this and I'm still not sure if there is consensus on the "correct" ways, but here's my 2 cents on the issues:

In general for average efficiencies in the 70-80% range, and for the average recipe, there is a pretty small difference for most specialty malts whether you just keep them the same by weight or do the efficiency correction. For example look at your example going from 70 to 78%, the difference in your 4 specialty malts are all less than an oz (for a 5 gal batch talking less than 2 oz). To me that's not enough to make a significant difference and it's easier to do the whole thing by percentage, so that's what I do. Where you might run into trouble is at the extremes of efficiency. For those guys who get 92% efficiency, or 60%, I could see where they might have to do some adjusting.

For hops I keep all the late additions (15 to 0) the same by weight and adjust the bittering additions to correct the IBU's. My thinking is the amount of flavor and aroma has more to do with overall weight so I want to keep that character the same, while the IBU's are greatly dependent on AA%. Not sure if it's "correct", but it's what I do.

ParanoidAndroid said:

Those IBU differences really don't make that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. I doubt anyone can tell the difference between a 25 IBU beer and a 26 IBU beer......

Click to expand...

You're only seeing a small difference because your batch sizes are still very close together. I've conversed with a few new pro brewers and for their first batches they simply scaled up the hop schedules proportionally to the new volume and ended up with way too bitter of beer. I believe they said they had to cut their hop usage by 30% compared with a five gallon recipe simply scaled up to 7bbl (maybe 3bbl, don't quote me on the size).

I'm not sure why it happens and haven't researched it.

chickypad said:

I've seen a lot of threads on this and I'm still not sure if there is consensus on the "correct" ways, but here's my 2 cents on the issues:

In general for average efficiencies in the 70-80% range, and for the average recipe, there is a pretty small difference for most specialty malts whether you just keep them the same by weight or do the efficiency correction. For example look at your example going from 70 to 78%, the difference in your 4 specialty malts are all less than an oz (for a 5 gal batch talking less than 2 oz). To me that's not enough to make a significant difference and it's easier to do the whole thing by percentage, so that's what I do. Where you might run into trouble is at the extremes of efficiency. For those guys who get 92% efficiency, or 60%, I could see where they might have to do some adjusting.

For hops I keep all the late additions (15 to 0) the same by weight and adjust the bittering additions to correct the IBU's. My thinking is the amount of flavor and aroma has more to do with overall weight so I want to keep that character the same, while the IBU's are greatly dependent on AA%. Not sure if it's "correct", but it's what I do.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I'm leaning towards what you are suggesting. Adjusting just the base malt for <10% efficiency change, and ill re-evaluate if somethings larger.

To me, its odd that there's no consensus on this, other than "I do this, and my beer tastes fine". It seems like a pretty basic part of brewing....adjusting recipes.

Also, are you saying you keep the same weight of hops for the late additions when converting between volumes? So if you have 1 oz of Fuggles at 10 minutes for a 5 gallon batch, then you convert it down to 2.5 gallons, you still use the 1 oz at 10 min?

ParanoidAndroid said:

Also, are you saying you keep the same weight of hops for the late additions when converting between volumes? So if you have 1 oz of Fuggles at 10 minutes for a 5 gallon batch, then you convert it down to 2.5 gallons, you still use the 1 oz at 10 min?

Click to expand...

No I meant to say that for a given volume I don't adjust the late additions for AA of the hops. For example if I have a beer I brew that calls for 1 oz of cascade at 10 and 0 minutes for a 5 gal batch, I always do 1 oz at those times regardless of the AA of the cascades that year. If I do a 10 gal batch of the same beer it's 2 oz per addition, and so on.

Now if it calls for an oz of Fuggles that translates to an oz of EKG for me because I hate Fuggles, but that's beside the point.

I do pretty much exactly what you described in the first post. Now, how much of a difference does it make when you are talking small differences in efficiency I'm not sure. I'm guessing minor technique differences batch to batch will make more of a difference but I still think it's the "correct" way.

FWIW, here is a spreadsheet I created. It allows you to scale everything. All you have to do is pick the grain type from the drop down, add the amount of grain which you can scale from the original recipe size to your desired yield using the calculator below the grain box. Similar process for the hops, and you can see how the IBU's change depending on time in boil and OG.

The spreadsheet should be relatively straight forward to use, but if you have any questions, PM me. Also, it has a Recipe Summary that is easy to print off and allows you to add notes and other items from brew day such as mash water volumes, temps, etc.

*NOTE: I had to change it to an XML file to upload it to this forum...if somethings don't work, please let me know and I can email you the original file.

**EDIT: It does not work as an XML but it allows you to see how my spreadsheet is set up. If you like it and want a working version, PM me your email and I will send it over.

View attachment Nut Brown Ale.xml

Biscuits said:

FWIW, here is a spreadsheet I created. It allows you to scale everything. All you have to do is pick the grain type from the drop down, add the amount of grain which you can scale from the original recipe size to your desired yield using the calculator below the grain box. Similar process for the hops, and you can see how the IBU's change depending on time in boil and OG.

The spreadsheet should be relatively straight forward to use, but if you have any questions, PM me. Also, it has a Recipe Summary that is easy to print off and allows you to add notes and other items from brew day such as mash water volumes, temps, etc.

*NOTE: I had to change it to an XML file to upload it to this forum...if somethings don't work, please let me know and I can email you the original file.

**EDIT: It does not work as an XML but it allows you to see how my spreadsheet is set up. If you like it and want a working version, PM me your email and I will send it over.

Click to expand...

Awesome. thanks. Ill PM you. I attached an updated version of mine. It scales for both added base malt and same ratios as original. I'm in the process of creating some drop down menus for grains and hops. I just installed a menu for the carb volumes.

Its still a work in progress, and will be for a while. Im hoping to eventually have EVERYTHING in there....even recommended food pairings for the style of beer.

View attachment Nut Brown 2_xmlNew.xml

ParanoidAndroid said:

Awesome. thanks. Ill PM you. I attached an updated version of mine. It scales for both added base malt and same ratios as original. I'm in the process of creating some drop down menus for grains and hops. I just installed a menu for the carb volumes.

Its still a work in progress, and will be for a while. Im hoping to eventually have EVERYTHING in there....even recommended food pairings for the style of beer.

Click to expand...

Yours looks really good. Mine too is a continuous work in progress. I just added a calorie calculator. I am still tweaking the layout a bit..but as of right now the way it is works for me since I usually tiling my screen so that I can transfer recipes without switching back and forth between the spreadsheet and the web page...so the way it is now makes it so I don't have to scroll up or down on the spreadsheet to access the sections I need.