First All Grain, Questions

I am planning my first all grain batch an oatmeal stout and am having trouble getting my water/grain ratio and infusion temps right.

I see most people rest around 122 and then mash at 153 and then mashout at 170.

I will be mashing in a modified cooler and my pot is only 30 qts so I need to balance this to come up with less than 30 qts. I have thought about skipping the rest and the mashout but have been reading John Palmer's book and want to keep the mash thick to maintain a malty brew, so I am going in circles. Also, Palmer says with oatmeal you should "mash with a 20 minute Beta Glucan Rest at 110°F to make lautering easier." Anyone have anything to say about this?

So, what is more beneficial to the final product to maintain the right volume I can do one:
1. Rest around 122.
2. Mashout at 170

I will be batch sparging with 1qt/lb, 11.5 lbs of grain, ~10% oatmeal, I can post the grain bill if needed.

Id do the low temp rest for the oats... raise the temp as much as you can with boiling water before lautering... but with the oats I think you may not want to skip the gum rest at about 110-115F

Personally, I wouldn't bother with the protein rest unless I were making a pilsner or something. For an oatmeal stout, just mash at 153-157deg. for an hour, then sparge with 170deg. after that. Easy.

Edit: I've never had problems with oats gumming things up (I use a false bottom, btw), but that doesn't mean that thePol isn't right...

GoatFarmersInternational said:

Personally, I wouldn't bother with the protein rest unless I were making a pilsner or something. For an oatmeal stout, just mash at 153-157deg. for an hour, then sparge with 170deg. after that. Easy

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So I was thinking about that, so what is the ideal water/grain ratio for stouts? Less than 1.25?

If I use much less than that I won't make enough wort for 5 gallons. But, if this is the case can I just use more sparge water? I was planning on using 1qt/lb at 170F.

Of course I do worry about things gumming up, BTW I have a 20 in. SS braid in my cooler.

This is where fly sparging is cool, you dont have to worry about batch volumes. You just run it off until you have enough.

If I add the 110-115 rest, that is no problem. I just can't do a mash out.

Is that going to be a problem? I would think no since I am batch sparging with 170F water.

decoction mash is your answer
JJ

jaybird said:

decoction mash is your answer
JJ

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Yeah, the more I read the more this is becoming clear. Maybe some day but not on my first AG.

Or some kind of steam infussion.
Or I could buy a bigger pot. Oh well, I will make this work.

O ya this is your first I forgot my bad. Single infusion and keep it simple. if you are worried about a stuck mash just use rice hulls.
Cheers

OK so after some reading I see no reason to have a mashout.
I might not need the 115 rest, but I can do it, so why not...

So, here's what I got for my 11.5lbs of grain:
add 11.5 quarts of 123F water-->115F for 20 min
add 9 quarts boiling water-->153F for 60min or until conversion is complete
sparge with 11.5 quarts of 170F water
collect ~27 quarts of wort (assuming .125gallon/lb loss to grain)
boil ~27 quarts to give ~23 quarts
after removing any sediment, ~5.5 gallons to ferment

This gives ~1.8qts/lb for the Saccharification rest. Is this too much for a stout (I think it might be)? Should I take some out of the initial infusion and move it to the sparge?

If you find your cooler is geting too full and you haven't hit your mash temps...draw off a couple quarts of wort and heat to 170 and reintroduce to the cooler. It's the quickest way to raise the temp when you've run out of room for more water.

Rdwhahb!!!!!
Jj

Using 1 qt water per pound of grain for the sparge is not enough, and will result in very low efficiency. You need to double the amount of sparge water which will produce more wort than you can handle.
BierMuncher suggested one way of keeping the mash volume lower, but if you use 1 qt water per pound of grain, you will find it difficult to drain off enough water to heat and step up the temperature. You could either increase the mash water to 1.25 qt per pound, or mash in a kettle on the stove top, using the stove to adjust the heat. Bier Muncher's suggestion is probably easier.
I also think you are underestimating the grain absorption.
I use 1 qt water per pound for the mash, 1 gallon near boiling water for a mash out, and about 6 gallons of sparge water for a batch with 12 lbs grain. This allows me to collect about 6.75g wort which gets boiled down to about 5.25g (accounting for losses when draining to the fermenter).
Lastly, I would use hotter water than 170 for the first batch. You want the sparge temperature to be 170, and if you add 170 degree water to a mash at 153, your sparge temp will be rather low.

Hope this helps.

-a.

If this is your first batch, I would recommend going w/ a single infusion and skip the lower rest for the oats. It's not going to mess up the beer. I've done oatmeal stouts w/ a single infusion and had great results. Keep it simple this time and play around and experiment more the next time. Try ajf's recommended volumes and I think you'll be pleased.

Cheers.

ajf said:

Using 1 qt water per pound of grain for the sparge is not enough, and will result in very low efficiency. You need to double the amount of sparge water which will produce more wort than you can handle.
BierMuncher suggested one way of keeping the mash volume lower, but if you use 1 qt water per pound of grain, you will find it difficult to drain off enough water to heat and step up the temperature. You could either increase the mash water to 1.25 qt per pound, or mash in a kettle on the stove top, using the stove to adjust the heat. Bier Muncher's suggestion is probably easier.
I also think you are underestimating the grain absorption.
I use 1 qt water per pound for the mash, 1 gallon near boiling water for a mash out, and about 6 gallons of sparge water for a batch with 12 lbs grain. This allows me to collect about 6.75g wort which gets boiled down to about 5.25g (accounting for losses when draining to the fermenter).
Lastly, I would use hotter water than 170 for the first batch. You want the sparge temperature to be 170, and if you add 170 degree water to a mash at 153, your sparge temp will be rather low.

Hope this helps.

-a.

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Everything I have read says you should/can use 1-1.3qts/lb. for batch sparging.
http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

I read somewhere that efficiency will be maximized if the first and second run-off are equal. Essentially using the same ratio to sparge with as you mashed with, maybe less taking into account adsorption by the grain.
Ah, here is where I read that: http://www.bayareamashers.org/content/maindocs/BatchSparging.htm

Also, I think I have read that many others use about that when they batch sparge.

I had read .125gallons/lb. for grain adsorption. You think it is more like .25gallons/lb?

You're right on the money. A little variance one way or the other w/ your mash and sparge volumes won't make much difference. That part of the process is fairly forgiving. You can even take that 6 gals of sparge water and split it into 2 separate batch sparges. If you want to mash a little thinner and use less sparge water, that's fine. I've tried several different methods and the results were all about the same.

The thing to remember is that you want strike + additional infusions + sparge - absorbtion = volume to boil.

I hope I didn't muddy the waters further. The point is pick a method/calculation and roll with it. That's what you need to get you through your first batch and you'll likely make great beer. Then fine tune and twiddle to your heart's content.

Lil' Sparky said:

If this is your first batch, I would recommend going w/ a single infusion and skip the lower rest for the oats. It's not going to mess up the beer. I've done oatmeal stouts w/ a single infusion and had great results. Keep it simple this time and play around and experiment more the next time. Try ajf's recommended volumes and I think you'll be pleased.

Cheers.

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I don't bother with lower infusion rests either. I do boil my oats for 15 minutes to make sure the oats are geltinized, although I realize it may not be nesessary if you are using instant oats.

Beerrific said:

Everything I have read says you should/can use 1-1.3qts/lb. for batch sparging.
http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

I read somewhere that efficiency will be maximized if the first and second run-off are equal. Essentially using the same ratio to sparge with as you mashed with, maybe less taking into account adsorption by the grain.
Ah, here is where I read that: http://www.bayareamashers.org/content/maindocs/BatchSparging.htm

Also, I think I have read that many others use about that when they batch sparge.

I had read .125gallons/lb. for grain adsorption. You think it is more like .25gallons/lb?

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The first link you posted appears to be out of action.
The second link assumes that you will do a batch sparge with a single batch of sparge water, so you add the extra water to the mash in order to achieve the required volume. I don't like this idea as it requires a very thin mash, and I don't like the results that a thin mash produces.
For some quotes, there is:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17.html which suggests using 1.5 times the amount of mash water for sparging, but his example shows a mash water to grain ratio of 2 qt per lb.

The Complete Handbook of Home Brewing by Dave Miller states:
"One old brewers' rule of thumb is to sparge with no more water than was used in mixing the mash. This is a good guideline when thin mashes are used as would be typical for decoction systems. However, with thick infusion mashes, this rule can be ignored, provided the water is acidified as I recommend"
Most people (myself included) do single infusion mashes, and use about twice as much sparge water as mash water.

http://www.beersmith.com/batch_sparging.htm lists values fairly similar to what I use.

As for grain absorption, you are probably right when you say I overestimated. I usually fly sparge, and stop the sparge when I have reached the required volume or the gravity of the runnings drops to about 1.010. At that point, I have a great deal of water in the MLT. I'd rather have too much sparge water than not enough.

-a.