Conical Fermenter cooler/chiller (peltier)

Hi
I have moved the discussion in a specific thread form the thread dedicated to fermentation chamber peltier cooled since the two project, a part from cooling technology, have different solutions and development.

The idea is to use an immersion water chiller inside the conical fermenter and recirculate cold water. The cooling is provided by a peltier air-water heat exchanger using a technology for PC watercooling (overclocking CPU)

I have sourced a surplus COOLIT freezone…that was made by a Canadian company. I got it from a surplus ebay auction



The basic principle is very simple the cool water is recirculated inside the conical fermenter via a stainless steal coil and is cooled by the peltier cells.



The coolIT exchanger is a very nice piece of engineering…very compact, colplete with pump, peltier cells, reservoir, fan…and it comes with a controller board that can control the power applied to the 6 cells and the speed of fun/pump according to set point and current measured temperature. So I expect that once the worth has reached the target temp the power will be adjusted in order to compensate just the heat produced by fermentation and loss of the system





The unit can be controlled by software PC via USB but it can works also stand alone…it is possible also to log temperature and power during the whole time !

The stainless steel coil has a diameter of 20cm and an height of 30cm. The pipe is 8mm OD , 7mm ID. The terminal are 90degree bended in order to exit the side wall of the fermenter so all the coupling and fittings are external (safer !). Two compression fittings keeps the coil in the canter of the fermenter



In order to avoid dispersion I have insulated the fermenter (both the side wall and the cone) using a foil of polistirolo and some neoprene.



Than after some trial I have substituted the original small 12V pump with a bigger one capable of 500l/h. The pump is a Thermaltake P500 pump and the fittings again comes from the PC modding / watercooling thecnology. It’s very low noise with ceramic bearings for long term usage. It’s compatible with high flow systems utilizing ID 6.4mm(1/4”) and 9.5mm(3/8”) tubing.



Last addition is a water reservoir..it’s very usefull when you fill the circuit and for eliminating bubble in the flow. It’s very compact and transparent so you can se water flowing. It has 4 1/4’’ port one used for the inlet, one for the outlet , one for temperature sensor and the top one for refilling.



I have also added a small water temperature monitor with a sensor inside the reservoir. It is not connected to the control board that has it’s own sensor but is just to monitor the temp without connecting to the PC via USB. The small circuit in front of the thermometer is a DC-DC step down converter in order to have 5V supply form 12V main power supply.





Here is the complete assembly. Up to now I have tested the fan, the controller and the water recirculation and it works fine…very compact , low noise, easy to mange. In order to complete the test I need to connect a proper power supply (12V -150-200W0 and I’m waiting for the delivery)

next post hopefully some results and experimental data
enjoy
Davide

That's a pretty sweet setup! It's definitely more compact than a traditional fermentation chamber.

Nice, it will be interesting to see how it performs. Thanks for the write up!

At the end of the day after few tunings and mechanical/hydraulic optimization I succeed in testing the system.

Saturday I have brewed 30L of ESB and I had the chance to cool it in the new fermenter.

the video below show you details of the rig (as soon I have time I try to insert some label in English)



As far as performance concern it seem to work fine.. the temperature was dropped from 21C to 19.5C (my set point) in less than an hour...than the temperature was stable and the power applied to the pletier cells at the minimum (40%).

One point that I have to verify is that the controller software doesn't allow me to set minimum power=0 the lower value accepted is 40%...this could be an issue if the room temperature is not so hot the 40%of power continuously applied even if you reach the set point could lead temperature too low..
I have to verify this point when fermentation starts to produce heat..menwhile I try to contact the manufacturer in order to see if there is any chance to set lower limit =0

The system generally speaking is very compact, easy to manage, and …hi tech !

I will let you know further progress
Stay tuned
Davide

Some more picture with the final set up...all components have been have been tighten on the base and some neoprene foil have been inserted in order to reduce noise and thermal transfer








do you like it ?

Davide

This is a gag, right?

mysobry said:

do you like it ?

Davide

Click to expand...

Very nice. What is the maximum theoretical BTU/hr rating on that?

Pilgarlic said:

This is a gag, right?

Click to expand...

Sorry I don't catch the question...maybe is my not so good english...but the project and the implementation is very serious and....it works !

This is very cool, once you've given it a good run through you should submit it to BYO Magazine.

ChandlerBang said:

Very nice. What is the maximum theoretical BTU/hr rating on that?

Click to expand...

Thank you for the compliment…I term of performance I have not calculated a sophisticated thermodynamic model…my approach was more empirc based on what I’m able to source on the surplus market at a reasonable price. Nevertheless some figures are available and I’m pleased to share..maybe you can help me in a math model.

I’m not familiar with US/GB unit measurement so everything is expressed in wat, Celsius etc..



The core of the unit are 6 peltier cells that are rated 72W maximum power..this is the absorption…I discovered that are under powered in order to work in a safer condition. Some PC modding project overpowered the cells or substituted with more powerful one.



According to this graph the unit is capable to dissipate around 120W with 0 delta to ambient temperature…so assuming that 30L of fermenting wort produce 100W heat you can cool at room temperature…If you want to go below room temperature you can dissipate 50W with 10C delta..

From my experimental test I was able to cool the fluid with no “load” (empty fermenter) up to 10-11 Celsius with 22C ambient.

One point that I’m still investigating is that the minimum power unit that you can configure via control software is 40%...even if the temp reach the set point the control unit still apply a minimum power of 40%...that is not so low..infact with water experiment I had a temperature slowing decreasing. In case of fermentation I’m still verifying if the heat produced by the fermentation compensate the 40% minimum power…I’m also investigating with the manufacturer if I can configure the minimum = 0



Last graph is related to thermal resistance according to power @100W it’s 0.1W/C that if I understand the number is quite low compared other cooling system (air-air)

Hope this data are useful..maybe we can start a more analytic thread for dimensioning peltier cells in such an application

Davide

wyzazz said:

This is very cool, once you've given it a good run through you should submit it to BYO Magazine.

Click to expand...

It would be an honour for me to provide a contribution to BYO in the DIY section…!
If you or someone else know how to submit the article or has any direct contact is appreciated

mysobry said:

It would be an honour for me to provide a contribution to BYO in the DIY section…!
If you or someone else know how to submit the article or has any direct contact is appreciated

Click to expand...

I'll PM you an email address...

one more picture with the stainless steal coil submerged in the wort



Davide

Awesome. I have been curious about using PC cooling concepts for brewing for a while now. Good work man.

some update on the fermentation progress..

fermentation is going well with more than 50% attenuation...temeprature is stable and since Saturday I have used around 2Kwh

short video with english label !



enjoy
Davide

mysobry said:

some update on the fermentation progress..

fermentation is going well with more than 50% attenuation...temeprature is stable and since Saturday I have used around 2Kwh

short video with english label !

Click to expand...

Very cool! Any luck in contacting the company about lowering the power below 40%? Also, is there a way to raise the temps using this chiller or are you stuck just lowering the temps?

wyzazz said:

Very cool! Any luck in contacting the company about lowering the power below 40%? Also, is there a way to raise the temps using this chiller or are you stuck just lowering the temps?

Click to expand...

I got in contact with the CoolIT support but officially there is no chance to hack that value...moreover the product has been discontinued and the engineers have left the company !
I have also verified some old forum threads and any configuration file / register key on the PC …but with no success… the value seems hard coded in the software/firmware

I’m thinking to evolve the system and the controller after this first trial…otherwise I don’t know how to enjoy myself…
The new requirements should be
-manage TEC power in the range 0-100%
-be able to heat and cool reversing the polarity
-control both wort and recirculating water temperature

A cupple of idea of possible solution

-Build from scratch a controller using ARDUINO board + sensor temperature + h-brige circuit for peltier

-Use evolved FAN controoler like aquareo XT and using direct connection for pump and fan + power booster for PWM output in order to drive the peltier
see my post.. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/aquaero-5-controller-pc-modding-budget-price-brewery-automation-317842/

So stay tuned for the evolution

Davide

wyzazz said:

Very cool! Any luck in contacting the company about lowering the power below 40%? Also, is there a way to raise the temps using this chiller or are you stuck just lowering the temps?

Click to expand...

If you cooled the peltier with another water loop then you could, in theory, reroute the hot side water in to the coils to raise temps. You would probably need to find an artificial heat source to apply to the cold side for this to work though. A lot of flow rerouting would need to take place.

It would make more sense to put a low wattage heating element in the loop and try to connect it to the same controller as the pelt.

notimepro said:

If you cooled the peltier with another water loop then you could, in theory, reroute the hot side water in to the coils to raise temps. You would probably need to find an artificial heat source to apply to the cold side for this to work though. A lot of flow rerouting would need to take place.

It would make more sense to put a low wattage heating element in the loop and try to connect it to the same controller as the pelt.

Click to expand...

maybe I don't understand your proposal but switching from cooling to heating is much simpler...you only need to invert the voltage on the peltier !!
You change by electronic control (h bridge circuit) the current flow (+ and -) and that's all...the hot and cold face revert...
With proper PID control and circuit you could keep temperature set point at a constant level regardless the external temperature !

this is in my opinion the main advantage of the peltier cells...on single device for both functionalities. No mechanical, hydraulic issue..


enjoy
Davide

I love the open pitcher of water, sitting on the PSU!

I built a a crude peltier setup with an OLD DangerDen waterblock to start learning the Arduino PID library. It had a rough time cooling the gallon or so of water I was using. My peltier is a small, CPU sized one, though.

Can you tell what size the peltier junction is in your system, or how much power requirement it requires? I zoomed in on your picture, does that say 6 x 72 watt heat pumps?

chuckjaxfl said:

I love the open pitcher of water, sitting on the PSU!

Click to expand...

You are right ..I'm not exactly compliant to safety rules...but it's a work around invented since my standard airolck wasn't fitting well..

I built a a crude peltier setup with an OLD DangerDen waterblock to start learning the Arduino PID library. It had a rough time cooling the gallon or so of water I was using. My peltier is a small, CPU sized one, though.

Can you tell what size the peltier junction is in your system, or how much power requirement it requires? I zoomed in on your picture, does that say 6 x 72 watt heat pumps?

Click to expand...

From your description I ‘m not able to understand your set up…I understand you use a CPU waterblock with a single cell..but how do you cool the peltier cell? How do you circulate cold water?

In my solution I use 6 peltier cells applied to 2 waterblock that are rated for 75W total power…they are used at 50% of their maximum power…and nevertheless the controller drop the power at the minimum allowed by software/firmware (40%)….I have inserted a power meter inline on the 220V AC power supply and istant power range form 30W to 50W… With this level I’m cooling since a week 30L of wort @19,5C with ambient temperature of 22-23C

Let me know If I can help you further

Regards
Davide

I wonder if I can use this air dryer. the concept is you pump air thru it and he cools it of to extract moist. I want to run glycol thru it an usew it on my fermenter tank jacket. I tun water but dont cool it .

gyropilot1 said:

I wonder if I can use this air dryer. the concept is you pump air thru it and he cools it of to extract moist. I want to run glycol thru it an usew it on my fermenter tank jacket. I tun water but dont cool it .

Click to expand...

Nice and interesting piece of HW...never seen before an "air dryer"

I think in principle your set up is good...any way to cool glycol is OK...and once you have a cooled fluid you can condition your wort, If you are so lucky to own a jacketed fermenter is better...in my case I use a chiller made by stainless steal coil submerged into the wort

The point is how to control the air dryer ..how does it work ? can you switch on and off like a fridge ? do you have any inertia to take care? How you set up the hysteresis ?

Maybe you can use the air dryer to cool a reservoir of water and than cool the glycol trough a brazed plate heat exchanger..

Davide

air goes in and is coil around the insulation I am going to open the insulation to see how it works. the concept is that it cools the air and the water in it is condense and extracted

You appear to have great knowledge in the area of peltier effect and TEC.

Has anyone attached the TEC directly to the fermenter? Cooling with the metal to metal contact with heat sink. I have a 15.5 converted keg to fermenter and I thought that adding a couple of TECs directly to the fermenter would aid in cooling and temperature control.

Does anyone that has knowledge of the TECs and Peltier effect have any input or experience on this? I'm a strict amateur in this area but love to experiment. I'm a finance guy, not an engineer or scientist.

thank you for any input.

menisale said:

You appear to have great knowledge in the area of peltier effect and TEC.

Has anyone attached the TEC directly to the fermenter?

Click to expand...

I have thought a little bit to this simple solution but I see a couple of mechanical problem...
PELTIER cells are typically flat..not flexible...so you should find a way to adapt the flat surface to a curved surface of a cylindrical fermenter..and find a way to press the cold face towards the fermenter
The other point is the insulation...you have to dissipate hot from the cells suppose via air cooling...in any case you have to discontinue the insulation ..

This are my main concerns…anyway I think that more beer cooling system is done this way…with a sort of external cooling belt



any idea on how to apply peltier to a fermenter is appreciated

Davide

Yes, the MoreBeer conical was what made me wonder. I'm going to try and go see one this weekend to see how they do it.

My concern was getting good contact because all I've read is about how important solid contact is and didn't see a way that you could do that on a round vessel. So you mentioning that they are using a belt would help to explain this. thx for the clarity. I will post once I've visited the More Conical,