hesitant to adjust water too much for smoked proter

[title edit: smoked PORTER]

I've been using the EZ water calculator spread sheet and have had some good success adjusting my water slightly - mainly adding some gypsum to up the hop crispness, occasionally adding some chalk or baking soda for darker beers. I'm about to make a smoked porter and I came across this post by Michael Tonsmiere (aka Oldsock here on HBT; aka The Mad Fermentationist) on his blog - http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/09/alderwood-smoked-imperial-porter.html

Looking down in the notes of his brewday, I noticed he gives his water profile and "salt" additions, which are more than I have ever done. However, when I looked at my water profile I realized that I could do something similar and the numbers look good. I guess I am just looking for reassurance that I can trust the numbers against my fear of adding too many things and messing the brew up.

Here's my water profile before any adjustments:
Ca: 43 ppm
Mg: 3.2 ppm
Na: 20 ppm
Cl: 44 ppm
SO4: 16 ppm
CaCO3: 79 ppm

To collect 5 gallons of liquid (yes, it is a small batch), I will be using 3.5 gallons of mash water and 2.5 gallons of sparge water. If I add 2g of chalk, 2g of gypsum, 3g of baking soda, and 1g NaCl, all to the mash (nothing to the sparge water) my water profile ends up at:

Ca: 110 ppm
Mg: 3.2 ppm
Na: 86 ppm
Cl: 111 ppm
SO4: 65 ppm
CaCO3: 228 ppm
residual alkalinity of 219 [good for SRM 23-28]

my recipe uses about 8% dark malts (6.5% Chocolate Wheat and 1.5% Black patent) for an anticipated color of 31.7 SRM.

Like I said, the numbers seem to work. I've just never added this much to my mash before. Anyone see any reason NOT to make these adjustments? Am I just being overly nervous?

JLem said:

[title edit: smoked PORTER]

I've been using the EZ water calculator spread sheet and have had some good success adjusting my water slightly - mainly adding some gypsum to up the hop crispness, occasionally adding some chalk or baking soda for darker beers. I'm about to make a smoked porter and I came across this post by Michael Tonsmiere (aka Oldsock here on HBT; aka The Mad Fermentationist) on his blog - http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/09/alderwood-smoked-imperial-porter.html

Looking down in the notes of his brewday, I noticed he gives his water profile and "salt" additions, which are more than I have ever done. However, when I looked at my water profile I realized that I could do something similar and the numbers look good. I guess I am just looking for reassurance that I can trust the numbers against my fear of adding too many things and messing the brew up.

Here's my water profile before any adjustments:
Ca: 43 ppm
Mg: 3.2 ppm
Na: 20 ppm
Cl: 44 ppm
SO4: 16 ppm
CaCO3: 79 ppm

To collect 5 gallons of liquid (yes, it is a small batch), I will be using 3.5 gallons of mash water and 2.5 gallons of sparge water. If I add 2g of chalk, 2g of gypsum, 3g of baking soda, and 1g NaCl, all to the mash (nothing to the sparge water) my water profile ends up at:

Ca: 110 ppm
Mg: 3.2 ppm
Na: 86 ppm
Cl: 111 ppm
SO4: 65 ppm
CaCO3: 228 ppm
residual alkalinity of 219 [good for SRM 23-28]

my recipe uses about 8% dark malts (6.5% Chocolate Wheat and 1.5% Black patent) for an anticipated color of 31.7 SRM.

Like I said, the numbers seem to work. I've just never added this much to my mash before. Anyone see any reason NOT to make these adjustments? Am I just being overly nervous?

Click to expand...

Yes, if you make those adjustments your mash pH will be too high.

Your water is fine as is. In fact, the pH is more likely to be higher than you want than lower than you want.

The other issue with making a smoked beer is that you want to make good and sure your water is completely chlorine free.

remilard said:

Yes, if you make those adjustments your mash pH will be too high.

Your water is fine as is. In fact, the pH is more likely to be higher than you want than lower than you want.

The other issue with making a smoked beer is that you want to make good and sure your water is completely chlorine free.

Click to expand...

Thanks. I use store bought spring water that I am sufficiently certain does not have any chlorine in it.

Just curious though how you determined that the pH would be too high?

You really need to check out the water chemistry primer, some good info in there.

wildwest450 said:

You really need to check out the water chemistry primer, some good info in there.

Click to expand...

I'm relatively aware of how brewing water chemistry works - residual alkalinity, etc - and that's why I was thinking my numbers worked fine for this brew. I am hesitant to move on these numbers only because I have never adjusted my water this much before. I thought I needed to adjust the water so the mash pH would be OK with a beer this dark, which is why I am confused by remilard's statement that the pH will be too high.

Can you give me something specific as to what is wrong with my thought process/plan here?

Here's my grist bill if it will help:
4.5 lbs Pale Malt (Weyermann) (3.3 SRM) 57.14 %
1.5 lbs Smoked Malt (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) 19.05 %
1 lbs Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) 12.70 %
8.0 oz Chocolate Wheat (Weyermann) (425.0 SRM) 6.35 %
4.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) 3.17 %
2.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) 1.59 %

Boil size: 5 gallons
Batch size: 3.5-4 gallons
estimated SRM: 31.7

Thanks

MMMmmm,smoked proter....so good!

Do you have a way to measure mash pH? I use Color pHast strips, they are pretty easy to read and they are easier to deal with than a meter.

Your water looks fine for a dark-ish beer, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to have some chalk or baking soda on hand to add if it comes in too low. I like higher levels of sodium/chloride in my dark beers, but it certainly isn't necessary. I'd skip the gypsum, sulfate is great in hoppy beers, but won't add much to this one.

Hope that helps, good luck.

You are wise to question the addition of such large amounts of salts. In particular, you would be violating the cardinal rule of brewing water chemistry which is "Don't add carbonate or bicarbonate to a mash or brewing water unless you have measured an excessively low mash pH with a meter." With a meter is emphasized because strips do not work very well in brewing. They seem to read 0.3 low which is, I think, in part responsible for the common misconception that lots of alkali is necessary in brewing. It is rare that you actually need to add any. As has been pointed out, mash pH is more likely to be too high than too low. Dublin water does not have RA of over 200 so why would you try to make stout with a water that alkaline?

The reason I and others say that the large amounts of alkali you are considering adding will lead to high pH is because we have measured mash pH in dark beers with water similar to your untreated water and found mash pH to come in between 5.2 and 5.5. And this is for beers much darker than the one you are planning. There are several spreadsheets abroad which are based on the correlation between color and acidity provided by dark malts. There is a correlation but it is much too tenuous (correlation coefficient is much to low) to permit design of salt additions based on it. Accordingly some spreadsheets call for excessive alkali addition and others for absurdly excessive additions. The fact that you came up with a result that makes your water more alkaline than the most pessimistic report on hand for Dublin is indicative that you have used one of these. It's a shame that so many have stumbled across these and blindly followed them because I'm sure a lot of beer has been, if not ruined, a lot less than they could be. The effects of too much carbonate/bicarbonate have been described to me as "AlkaSelzer beer", dull, flat, chalky tasting etc.

Your water should make a fine stout just as it is. It's residual alkalinity will probably result in a mash pH of about 5.5 with 10% dark malts. This is a bit higher than you might like but is within acceptable bounds. The words "should"and "probably" are used intentionally because there are so many variables that it is impossible to predict exactly what will happen in any particular case. I strongly encourage people to obtain an inexpensive pH meter (that phrase used to be a contradiction in terms but it isn't any more) and check mash pH at dough in and 10 - 15 minutes later. Don't rely on strips. If you don't want to invest in a meter you can follow the recommendations in the Primer to get started. But you don't even need to do that. Just use the water you have.

Thanks all.

I do not have a pH meter, though it is certainly on my brewing wishlist. I was simply going on the relationship between beer color and residual alkalinity (using both the nomograph in How to Brew and the EZ Water Calculator spreadsheet presented here in this forum). I realize now that there is a 2nd version of the EZ Water Calculator that incorporates the grist and gives a predicted mash pH instead. This second version matches well with what you all have said. I will not touch the mash water...

Thanks for the help and the clarifications. Glad I thought to question what I was doing - you know what they say about a little knowledge.

I've found that a bit of extra carbonate helps to smooth out the harsh/acrid flavors that many people complain about from high levels of black barley and black patent. Although I agree that the spreadsheets that suggests 300+ ppm based solely on the predicted SRM of the beer should not be trusted.

Oldsock said:

I've found that a bit of extra carbonate helps to smooth out the harsh/acrid flavors that many people complain about from high levels of black barley and black patent.

Click to expand...

I'd be more than a little interested if you could expand on this just a tad.

I'm not sure where that comes from. I don't get it but I certainly have tasted it in other peoples' stouts. I have seen people report that when they left out the carb/bicarb that the harshness went away. Is it possible we are chasing our tails here - adding lots of dark malt in order to combat artificially high levels of alkalinity and then adding more alkalinity to combat the acidity that the dark malts lend? Doesn't make much sense.

Obviously, one suggestion would be to use the Carafa (dehusked) malts to eliminate some of the charcoal briquette quality of many home brewed stouts. Personally, I find that a modest amount (10%) roast barley gives lots of nice coffee/chocolate flavors with out any harsness at all in a dry (Irish) stout but I'm not really much of a stout brewer. I'd say (I always say) control mash pH but experiment with it. If you are getting harshness at pH 5.2 then add less black grain next time and see how you like that. If it isn't sufficiently stout like then put the grain back in and add a bit of alkali to mash at pH 5.3 and see if that improves things. By all means use whatever works for you.

In my own limited experience I brew 60 - 80 SRM dry stout with water of about 40 RA and no carbonate addition using base (Maris Otter), 10% roast barley and flaked barley. Mash pH comes out about 5.5 and the beer finishes at pH 4.45 - right where everything should be. It is very smooth and chocolatey. Oldsock has tasted it.

I have never done it but calcium hydroxide (lime) would seem to be a good way to control mash pH if it is or is suspected of being too low as it adds alkalinity (and calcium) without adding any bicarbonate. I just don't think bicarbonate tastes very good.

ajdelange said:

Mash pH comes out about 5.5 and the beer finishes at pH 4.45 - right where everything should be.

Click to expand...

When I first read through this I thought, "What about adding the carbonate to the boil?" I don't know if I've seen much discussion on beer PH other than it does get lower and helps keep microbes from growing. Not a lot on the final PH in terms of beer flavor. I have a sweet stout that is about 2 months from brew date at this point. I was a little unhappy with the roast at first but it seems to be coming around. Now I honestly don't know if I thought it was harsh or just too much. I'll have to stick a bottle in the fridge and try it in a few days. It might be too late at this point as it seems to be aging well. I have some 'pre primer' that is definitely harsh and I'm hoping mellows out.

ajdelange said:

I'm not sure where that comes from. I don't get it but I certainly have tasted it in other peoples' stouts. I have seen people report that when they left out the carb/bicarb that the harshness went away. Is it possible we are chasing our tails here - adding lots of dark malt in order to combat artificially high levels of alkalinity and then adding more alkalinity to combat the acidity that the dark malts lend? Doesn't make much sense.

Obviously, one suggestion would be to use the Carafa (dehusked) malts to eliminate some of the charcoal briquette quality of many home brewed stouts. Personally, I find that a modest amount (10%) roast barley gives lots of nice coffee/chocolate flavors with out any harsness at all in a dry (Irish) stout but I'm not really much of a stout brewer. I'd say (I always say) control mash pH but experiment with it. If you are getting harshness at pH 5.2 then add less black grain next time and see how you like that. If it isn't sufficiently stout like then put the grain back in and add a bit of alkali to mash at pH 5.3 and see if that improves things. By all means use whatever works for you.

In my own limited experience I brew 60 - 80 SRM dry stout with water of about 40 RA and no carbonate addition using base (Maris Otter), 10% roast barley and flaked barley. Mash pH comes out about 5.5 and the beer finishes at pH 4.45 - right where everything should be. It is very smooth and chocolatey. Oldsock has tasted it.

Click to expand...

Well said. What is the SRM of your roasted barley? The ~500L stuff, or the ~300L stuff, that makes a big difference.

The most recent BYO had an article that suggested using very soft water for a stout gave very "smooth" results, even with high levels of roasted barley (which supports your position).

I did a beer inspired by Courage Russian Imperial Stout, 1 lb of black patent in a 4 gallon batch. With carbonate ~250 ppm there weren't any harsh/acrid flavor even when the beer was young.

Certainly seems like something that needs to be ironed out with couple brews of the same recipe with different water chemistries.

Hermit said:

When I first read through this I thought, "What about adding the carbonate to the boil?"

Click to expand...

Brewers add calcium salts or acid to the kettle in order to lower mash pH - not raise it. As such they don't add the carbonate (though there is probably and exception as there is with most things in life). It is generally thought that the pH going into the kettle should be around 5.2.

Oldsock: The roast barley I use is marked 675L. It certainly produces the color. I got, respectively, 60 SRM and 84 SRM the last two times I used it at the 10% level.

Hermit said:

I have a sweet stout that is about 2 months from brew date at this point. I was a little unhappy with the roast at first but it seems to be coming around. Now I honestly don't know if I thought it was harsh or just too much. I'll have to stick a bottle in the fridge and try it in a few days. It might be too late at this point as it seems to be aging well. I have some 'pre primer' that is definitely harsh and I'm hoping mellows out.

Click to expand...

Well, just revisited the recipe. It is Jamil's from "Brewing Classic Styles" and calls for a pound of black patent, not roasted barley, per 5.5 gallon batch. I cut it back some but not enough for my taste. That said, considering it is black patent and not roasted barely, it is much smoother than I would normally expect out of one of my brews 'pre primer'. More like a cold cup of thick espresso. (it is Jamil's sweet stout recipe). It is not harsh or astringent, just heavily flavored.