Five Star 5.2 and water minerals

I have pretty soft water. If I use Five Star 5.2, will my beers that typically require more mineral content (hard water) still benefit from additions like gypsum? Or is the main purpose of those additives just to get the pH correct in the mash?

The 5.2 product does not provide any of the important brewing ions (Calcium, Magnesium, Sulphate, Chloride). If those ions are adjusted into the correct range then barring an extremely unusual beginning water profile the mash pH will fall into the proper area. That is not only more important but when done right there is no need for any extraneous pH helper.

Thanks BigEd. I understand that I'm coming from the opposite direction (the pH helper isn't extraneous if you're not adding salts), but I'm wondering how different the results will be.

I guess the question can be rephrased: how much of the improvement from the proper addition of the brewing minerals/salts (calcium, magnesium, sulphate, chloride), appropriate for the style (e.g. softening water for pilsners, hardening water for stouts), is from achieving the proper pH in the mash and how much, if any, is from the actual taste of the minerals/salts in the finished beer?

Because if most of the improvement comes from getting the proper pH in the mash, then 5.2 could really simplify the process.

aggieactuary said:

Thanks BigEd. I understand that I'm coming from the opposite direction (the pH helper isn't extraneous if you're not adding salts), but I'm wondering how different the results will be.

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Mash pH is just one factor. There are several other factors in the water that effect yeast health and beer flavor. Just how big a difference depends on the beer and how you treat the water. The only way to really now the difference is to brew the same beer with 2 different waters and then do a blind tasting or a triangle tasting.

You don't need to use 5.2 to get your pH, you can to that easily and predictably with salt additions. I don't fully understand how 5.2 works, but whatever it does means I can't control my outcome. I much prefer deciding the levels of mineral content myself. A quick bit of google fu will get you some articles discussing the various flavor impacts of the particular salts at different concentrations. Use that to build your recipe just like you sit and think about what grains you want to use by what flavor they will add, think about what salt you want to use by what it will add to the end product. The other end of your question is that pH is critical to yeast. 5.2 is the magic level that strikes a balance between a lot of factors so hitting that range is critical to making excellent beer.

So there you have it in a nutshell, pH and salts both play a role in your flavor profile.

Check out the EZ water calculator. It really makes salt additions very EZ http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

maida7 said:

Check out the EZ water calculator. It really makes salt additions very EZ http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

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if you know where your starting from....

I dont....

Tim

MX1 said:

if you know where your starting from....

I dont....

Tim

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If your on a municipal water system then they may be able to provide you with a report showing what's in your water.

If not then send a sample to Ward Labs. For 16.50 you get a full report of everything you need to know about your water for brewing.

Or alternately, you can use distilled or RO water, which will be basically 0 for all ions.

For 5.2 to work you need to be in a particular range already, it's not good at all on my water profile and I still measure 6.5-6.8 even with the 5.2 addition, I won't be buying it again.

Check out the Brew Science forum and read the sticky called "Water chemistry primer."

For brewing all-grain you really should have a pH meter and be checking mash pH. Its like brewing and not checking your beer with a hydrometer. You really have no idea what is going on. My last few batches I have stuck exactly to the methods spelled out by AJ and my mash pH has been perfect without any brewday adjustments necessary. I just did a sweet stout with roughly 10% roasted malt with RO water and 1 tsp CaCl and hit a mash pH of 5.25.

The general consensus among people who have monitored mash pH with a meter while using 5.2 salts is that they don't really work as advertised. AJ has some great posts in the brew science forum where he explains the mechanics of 5.2 salts and why you really don't need them.

aggieactuary said:

I guess the question can be rephrased: how much of the improvement from the proper addition of the brewing minerals/salts (calcium, magnesium, sulphate, chloride), appropriate for the style (e.g. softening water for pilsners, hardening water for stouts), is from achieving the proper pH in the mash and how much, if any, is from the actual taste of the minerals/salts in the finished beer?

Because if most of the improvement comes from getting the proper pH in the mash, then 5.2 could really simplify the process.

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I think you have fallen into a very common trap of misunderstanding. While the pH of the mash is important, only addressing the pH as separate issue seems to be a common mistake among novice all grain brewers. A proper mash pH should be the end result of having the correct balance of brewing ions in the water for the beer being brewed. These ions, especially Calcium, are of utmost importance in mashing and brewing and to answer your question from above your beer will be much improved with the correct additions of brewing ions. They do a lot of other jobs and the pH correction is almost a side effect. Failing to have them in the water, even if the mash pH is artificially forced to the right number with 5.2 product, can result in a number of shortcomings both in your process and your beer. The minerals aren't there for taste, like sprinkling salt on a steak, they are doing very important jobs in the biochemical reactions going on in the mash and the boil.

BigEd said:

I think you have fallen into a very common trap of misunderstanding. While the pH of the mash is important, only addressing the pH as separate issue seems to be a common mistake among novice all grain brewers. A proper mash pH should be the end result of having the correct balance of brewing ions in the water for the beer being brewed. These ions, especially Calcium, are of utmost importance in mashing and brewing and to answer your question from above your beer will be much improved with the correct additions of brewing ions. They do a lot of other jobs and the pH correction is almost a side effect. Failing to have them in the water, even if the mash pH is artificially forced to the right number with 5.2 product, can result in a number of shortcomings both in your process and your beer. The minerals aren't there for taste, like sprinkling salt on a steak, they are doing very important jobs in the biochemical reactions going on in the mash and the boil.

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Building off of BigEd and what I was saying in my previous post, the minerals play a critical role in yeast health. As far as flavor is concerned you can make good beer without worrying about minerals, but understanding them and using them appropriately will make the difference between good and great. Like BigAl said, you can force pH with stuff like 5.2 or lactic acid, but your yeast won't have optimal health and the minor flavor additions won't be there leaving the beer lacking. In a way pH is a biproduct, but the more you research yeast the more you realize the 5.2 pH is actually a critical balance between many factors so in the end you want to make sure you are getting there, if another pH was ideal we would adjust our water so that pH was the byproduct of salt additions.

Another thing to note is you do not have to be perfect. My water company gets its water from numerous wells so there is variance in water profile. I took as many reports as I could get from them and averaged the numbers. I plugged those into EZ Water. Sometimes my mash is 5.1, sometimes 5.3, the point is that even with some slop its getting me right in that critical area so I know it is an effective tool...and given its free and easy to use there really is little reason to be so lazy as to buy 5.2 and call it good unless you only care that your beer is good enough.

I live in Brussels, my water comes through a softner, and I dont kow what the analysis is on it, and to be honest, right now, I dont care. There are many other things I need to get consistant on first, before I worry about the water.

Maybe once I am proficient at the rest of the process, then I will look to that step. But right now I dont see it as important enough to 1. mail a water bottle 1/2 around the world, and 2. Fight through the language issues to have it done locally.

so in the end...

and given its free and easy to use there really is little reason to be so lazy as to buy 5.2 and call it good unless you only care that your beer is good enough.

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I guess I only care that my beer is "good enough" (hope you catch the intended sarcasim)

Tim

MX1 said:

I live in Brussels, my water comes through a softner, and I dont kow what the analysis is on it, and to be honest, right now, I dont care. There are many other things I need to get consistant on first, before I worry about the water.

Maybe once I am proficient at the rest of the process, then I will look to that step. But right now I dont see it as important enough to 1. mail a water bottle 1/2 around the world, and 2. Fight through the language issues to have it done locally.

so in the end...



I guess I only care that my beer is "good enough" (hope you catch the intended sarcasim)

Tim

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Is that a softener that uses salts to soften? If so you might really struggle with some really high levels of certain salts (off the top of my head I can't remember what salts the softeners use). Anyway, if that is the case and you can't bypass the softener you might consider getting bottled water for the time being and then add salts and build from the ground up.

Water just run through a softener, and not passed through a reverse osmosis filtering system will not be good for brewing. There are a number of reasons why, but basically it strips out the calcium and magnesium ions necessary for good yeast health, and replaces them with sodium ions. Too much sodium in a beer will cause bitterness perception to be altered and can taste "salty" to some people. So, unless you're passing your softened water through an RO unit before use in brewing, its not recommended to use soft water for either extract or all grain brews.

KAMMEE said:

Water just run through a softener, and not passed through a reverse osmosis filtering system will not be good for brewing. There are a number of reasons why, but basically it strips out the calcium and magnesium ions necessary for good yeast health, and replaces them with sodium ions. Too much sodium in a beer will cause bitterness perception to be altered and can taste "salty" to some people. So, unless you're passing your softened water through an RO unit before use in brewing, its not recommended to use soft water for either extract or all grain brews.

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Good call Kammee, that is what I was thinking of with the sodium...completely forgot about the stripping of minerals as well, living in the pacific northwest we get spoiled with awesome water so softeners aren't something we really think about.

Thx, but I am good for now...

Tim

MX1 said:

Thx, but I am good for now...

Tim

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There must be breweries in your area and also other homebrewers. Are they using the hard water from the tap? Or do they generally treat it? It may be a fun experiment to visit the brewers and find out.

I can get regular old spring water very cheap. I can get RO water pretty cheap, I can get salts very cheap, I just think there are other things to work on first

Tim

MX1 said:

I can get regular old spring water very cheap. I can get RO water pretty cheap, I can get salts very cheap, I just think there are other things to work on first

Tim

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Posibly, it depends on where you are in your brewing. I feel sanitation is job one. Once you've got good sanitation practice , mastering yeast and fermentation is the most important factor in making great beer. After you have mastered fermentation you can move any any number of directions. Water, all grain, developing recipes, etc...

But if you have lousy sanitation and fermentation none of the other stuff will make any sense.

Right, that is what I am talking about right now.

My brewing set was all over the place, so my brewing was all over the place. I am rebuilding the brewery, hope this will let me brew more consistantly.

I have had issues with yeast, so I am moving to starters, waiting on a part for my stir plate.

Fermentation will be next, I am water bath and shirt right now.....

I am not oppsesed to treating water, I was ticked off by the " you just dont care" comment made a few post above.

Tim

Right, that is what I am talking about right now.

My brewing set was all over the place, so my brewing was all over the place. I am rebuilding the brewery, hope this will let me brew more consistantly.

I have had issues with yeast, so I am moving to starters, waiting on a part for my stir plate.

Fermentation will be next, I am water bath and shirt right now.....

I am not oppsesed to treating water, I was ticked off by the " you just dont care" comment made a few post above.

Tim

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You are correct in thinking that yeast and fermentation is more important to control and lock down than the other stuff. However, you can be doing all that correctly and not get the desired result because pH and water chemistry is not correct. Mash pH and how it drives the final beer pH is one of the most important factors relating to drinkability of a beer. Check out the water chemistry primer in the brew science section. AJ makes it very simple to understand. Just follow what he outlines and you will get good results. Then once you get the fermentation items lock down that you are talking about, you can really start to tinker with how you want your beers to taste by adjusting the water ions.

MX1 said:

Right, that is what I am talking about right now.

My brewing set was all over the place, so my brewing was all over the place. I am rebuilding the brewery, hope this will let me brew more consistantly.

I have had issues with yeast, so I am moving to starters, waiting on a part for my stir plate.

Fermentation will be next, I am water bath and shirt right now.....

I am not oppsesed to treating water, I was ticked off by the " you just dont care" comment made a few post above.

Tim

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Starters and temp control will make a HUGE impact in your brewing. Sounds like your definitely on the right track.

I ahve been looking at it today, there really is good stuff there.

I also found the water report for Culligan water and linked to it, however the water report does not list the the minerls asked for on the cheat sheets....

Tim

MX1 said:

I am not oppsesed to treating water, I was ticked off by the " you just dont care" comment made a few post above.

Tim

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Wow, that's aweseome, you took something that was a statement to the issue of using 5.2 per the OP based off what BigEd wrote in response to aggieactuary and then interpreted as personal insult...good for your ego.

Meanwhile my statement involved the use of 5.2. 5.2 is a crutch with little reason to use given how easy spreadsheets like EZ Water make salt additions. As another post said, 5.2 is made for water that fall within a certain parameter so if you do not know what your water report is, it would be as pointless and potentially as destructive to your brew as tossing in handfulls of random hops so it is pointless to use without knowing something about your water. If you know your water profile then doing salt additions is extremely simple so not doing so and using the 5.2 crutch is saying the beer is good enough and that is an area you accept being lazy in. That said, what I was saying was a statement of fact, not ridicule.

Relax people, home brewing is a hobby. Just cause somebody does something different does not make it bad. There are plenty of happy people using 5.2 and many of them are making great beer. Different strokes for different folks.

Bensiff said:

If you know your water profile then doing salt additions is extremely simple so not doing so and using the 5.2 crutch is saying the beer is good enough and that is an area you accept being lazy in.

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Thanks for all the help.

My problem is I don't know my complete water profile. I know most if it (I'm missing the bicarbonates), and it looks like I have soft water.

I got a container from Ward Lab, and I'm going to send that in soon.

I just thought that, until I get the results, I might be able to use 5.2 to keep me in the correct pH range. But I see now that I'd probably be missing some important nutrients for the yeast.

In the meantime, how do you think it would work to use 5.2 and add some yeast nutrient I can get at the LHBS?

MX1 said:

I can get regular old spring water very cheap. I can get RO water pretty cheap, I can get salts very cheap, I just think there are other things to work on first

Tim

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Water quality is the single most important factor in AG brewing, imo. What difference does fermentation temps, yeast count, aeration etc. make if you start with an unknown? Especially if the unknown is crap.

Bensiff said:

Wow, that's aweseome, you took something that was a statement to the issue of using 5.2 per the OP based off what BigEd wrote in response to aggieactuary and then interpreted as personal insult...good for your ego.

Meanwhile my statement involved the use of 5.2. 5.2 is a crutch with little reason to use given how easy spreadsheets like EZ Water make salt additions. As another post said, 5.2 is made for water that fall within a certain parameter so if you do not know what your water report is, it would be as pointless and potentially as destructive to your brew as tossing in handfulls of random hops so it is pointless to use without knowing something about your water. If you know your water profile then doing salt additions is extremely simple so not doing so and using the 5.2 crutch is saying the beer is good enough and that is an area you accept being lazy in. That said, what I was saying was a statement of fact, not ridicule.

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it had noting to with my ego, but in my opinion that comment comes off very arrogant on your part, salts is easy for who? you? because with or with out the EZ sheet I still don't understand it. You can take your perfectly adjust water and well...drink it. I am so very sorry if my lowly level of brewing is not on par with your high standards...guess it is a good thing you will never have to let my swill pass your lips...

wildwest450 said:

Water quality is the single most important factor in AG brewing, imo. What difference does fermentation temps, yeast count, aeration etc. make if you start with an unknown? Especially if the unknown is crap.

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Yeah I can see where yeast is so not important, where understand how mash temp affect sugar content, and hell who needs a good crush on the grain, so long as you have 27 ppm unobtainium in your mash water your beer will be stellar...

believe it or not, I do know and understand why water is important, but my water is drinkable, so I use it as is, for now....

Tim

aggieactuary said:

Thanks for all the help.

My problem is I don't know my complete water profile. I know most if it (I'm missing the bicarbonates), and it looks like I have soft water.

I got a container from Ward Lab, and I'm going to send that in soon.

I just thought that, until I get the results, I might be able to use 5.2 to keep me in the correct pH range. But I see now that I'd probably be missing some important nutrients for the yeast.

In the meantime, how do you think it would work to use 5.2 and add some yeast nutrient I can get at the LHBS?

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Yeast nutrients and mineral additions are different creatures. I always use yeast nutrients, nothing wrong with using them when having no idea what your water profile is. I don't know enough about 5.2 to give recommendations on its use though, if it is something to use for soft water then you will be fine. It isn't ideal, but its better than nothing.

wildwest450 said:

Water quality is the single most important factor in AG brewing, imo. What difference does fermentation temps, yeast count, aeration etc. make if you start with an unknown? Especially if the unknown is crap.

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That is what I was driving at without getting into the technicality of it. If you do not take care of your water the impact on the yeast is substantial. It doesn't really matter if the pitch rate spot on if your water is messed up because the yeast won't perform.

I wouldn't go so far as to say water is the MOST important thing for AG brewing, but it is important. As long as you are measuring mash pH with a reliable meter you should be fine. You can adjust the ions from there for flavor. Just saying that your water tastes fine and brewing with it is not enough. You NEED to be measuring mash pH and adjusting it into the proper range or you can have perfect cold side processes and not get great beer. If your water has too much carbonate and your mash pH is too high you will be extracting all kinds of tannins and harsh flavors from your mash. Without measuring pH you are really brewing blind. Its like brewing without knowing how much yeast you are pitching or knowing what temp you are fermenting at. Completely disregarding water is a mistake, but you are right that you don't need to get all crazy about it right away.

MX1 said:

it had noting to with my ego, but in my opinion that comment comes off very arrogant on your part, salts is easy for who? you? because with or with out the EZ sheet I still don't understand it. You can take your perfectly adjust water and well...drink it. I am so very sorry if my lowly level of brewing is not on par with your high standards...guess it is a good thing you will never have to let my swill pass your lips...


Tim

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Again, what I said was a statement of fact not as intent to tick you off, more so aggie would really be the one who should be upset at that since the comment had absolutely nothing to do with your post. That said, I apologize for offending you, it was unintentional.

I'm sure your beer tastes good without water additions as stated, I'm driving at that water adjustments are a relatively easy way to really boost your end product. I hate to bring up JZ, but he is an accomplished competition brewer and judge and he got into this issue pretty extensively...the difference between good and great based off water chemistry.

If you take this stuff and look at it there is a monumental amount of knowledge to acquire to begin to understand everything going on in brewing and sure that can feel overwhelming when trying to nail down your first few all grain batches. However, because of things like EZ Water you can still easily jump into making water adjustments with good results without knowing exactly what is going on. A little Google Fu will pull up a quick primer on the various brewing salts and how they impact the beer. That will take about 10 minutes, with that knowledge you can use EZ Water to get the water where you want it with the end result of the pH necessary for good fermentation. It might seem daunting, but I'm trying to convey that it actually is quite easy to get started with making water adjustments. It is the in depth understanding that is the hard part. You can spend your life never knowing in-depth water chemistry and make great beer with just EZ Water and a quick brew salt primer. Further there are a few videos floating around here walking through using the EZ Water spreadsheet to further help.

wildwest450 said:

Water quality is the single most important factor in AG brewing, imo. What difference does fermentation temps, yeast count, aeration etc. make if you start with an unknown? Especially if the unknown is crap.

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Because even the worst tap water is half way good for making beer.

Just want to apologize for being so fussy and threadjacking this topic....

PM sent

Tim

EoinMag said:

For 5.2 to work you need to be in a particular range already, it's not good at all on my water profile and I still measure 6.5-6.8 even with the 5.2 addition, I won't be buying it again.

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Is this after adding your grains? I heard from a podcast that 5.2 won't work until grains are added to teh water. When they are added the 5.2 goes to work. I also heard that 5.2 is better at lowering PH than raising it, which would make intuitive sense.

maida7 said:

Because even the worst tap water is half way good for making beer.

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Not really. I may have overstated my point but, I believe most ager's do things backwards, me included. Water chemistry was last on my list, I already had nailed all my volumes, fermentation control, proper crush, and proper yeast pitching rates.

But the water was still an unknown, and my beers have certainly come up a notch since getting a basic understanding of water chemistry and buying a ph meter. BTW 5.2 used to be a staple, it isn't all it's cracked up to be. I still maintain if you don't know your water and how to treat it, you're cheating the end result.

But hey that's just my 2 cents.

wildwest450 said:

Not really. I may have overstated my point but, I believe most ager's do things backwards, me included. Water chemistry was last on my list, I already had nailed all my volumes, fermentation control, proper crush, and proper yeast pitching rates.

But the water was still an unknown, and my beers have certainly come up a notch since getting a basic understanding of water chemistry and buying a ph meter. BTW 5.2 used to be a staple, it isn't all it's cracked up to be. I still maintain if you don't know your water and how to treat it, you're cheating the end result.

But hey that's just my 2 cents.

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I would agree with you BUT... Unless your brewing with dirty swamp water, the water notch is smaller then the fermentation notch.

In this example, notch = level of improvement.

maida7 said:

I would agree with you BUT... Unless your brewing with dirty swamp water, the water notch is smaller then the fermentation notch.

In this example, notch = level of improvement.

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In many ways I tend to agree with this; however, the fermentation "notch" requires some specifics from the water chemistry above and beyond the pH. But, as I have said all along, you can use your water as is and you will produce good beer...to get great beer will require great starting water though.