The War on Drugs: They've Finally Arrested All the Kingpins...

I am in no way advocating the use of drugs, I have never smoked weeeeeeed, thats my story and I am sticking with it for now, but, if it helps just one person for medical reasons then I say let them get their 'scrip filled legally.
No reason for cops to be out "creating" crimes.
AP

noobrewer said:

Maybe if people were allowed to see druggies in their true form (whacked out 24-7),

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I've seen plenty of "druggies" in their true form and they are nothing like you describe. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of them are good, wholesome, tax paying Americans who work hard and take very good care of themselves and their families.

noobrewer
Maybe if people were allowed to see druggies in their true form (whacked out 24-7),

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Just like you are an alcoholic always drunk and beating your wife?

noobrewer said:

No one ever died from smoking marijuana. You can look on the FDA site and the only drug who's side effect does NOT include death is marijuana. These cops are going after small potatoes, so is this entire war on drugs. Maybe if people were allowed to see druggies in their true form (whacked out 24-7), would they ACTUALLY be deterred away from use, or over-use. People need to be given the autonomy to make decisions for themselves... to use or not to use.

PS. 1 semester shy of a Criminal Justice degree and I hate the field... the most backwards mentalities rule this field.

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How do you define "druggy"? The ONDCP defines it as "anyone who even thinks about doing drugs". We all know that's not true, their hideous propaganda machine notwithstanding.

People can and do see hard addicts in their "true form". Like right here.
But...those are generally the exception, especially with lighter drugs like weed...so along with the scary spectre of a hard addict, people should also be exposed to the millions of people who are responsible adults and also do drugs recreationally. You can't just show someone a clip of a cracked-out meth fiend and say "see, kids, don't do drugs".

Evan! said:

How do you define "druggy"? The ONDCP defines it as "anyone who even thinks about doing drugs". We all know that's not true, their hideous propaganda machine notwithstanding.

People can and do see hard addicts in their "true form". Like right here.
But...those are generally the exception, especially with lighter drugs like weed...so along with the scary spectre of a hard addict, people should also be exposed to the millions of people who are responsible adults and also do drugs recreationally. You can't just show someone a clip of a cracked-out meth fiend and say "see, kids, don't do drugs".

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I love Intervention. I honestly admit I can't turn away from the train wrecks. The best was the one with the son from one of the guys from Three Dog Night. He goes to rehab and finds God within 2 weeks or something silly like that. Taped show ends, then they do the update. He gets kicked out and steals a car the same day. 2 years in the slammer. Good job, dude.

PseudoChef said:

I love Intervention. I honestly admit I can't turn away from the train wrecks. The best was the one with the son from one of the guys from Three Dog Night. He goes to rehab and finds God within 2 weeks or something silly like that. Taped show ends, then they do the update. He gets kicked out and steals a car the same day. 2 years in the slammer. Good job, dude.

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That is a good show but to see humor in someone sinking so tragically low is not right. +1 to Evan about casual pot smokers, and teenagers smoking a bong. They are hardly "meth-heads".

Pugilist said:

That is a good show but to see humor in someone sinking so tragically low is not right. +1 to Evan about casual pot smokers, and teenagers smoking a bong. They are hardly "meth-heads".

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It may not be right, but I admit that I get a kick out of it too.

However, I also enjoy it when they actually get themselves better.

We won't see a change in our draconian drug laws. Our prison system is really fast becoming privatized. These corporations hire lobbyists to make sure these laws remain in tact else their customer base will decline.

I can finally sleep easy knowing that gullible teenage boys are behind bars where they belong.

I would say druggies are anyone that let drugs rule their life. If you can smoke (or drink and make booze ) while still taking care of your responsibilities (wife, kids, work, money, food, etc) then the govt. should not be there to tell you your activities are wrong. So when I say druggies, I mean the homeless hippies in downtown seattle that beg for a joint or your spare change.

if you take the smoking part out of it.....pot is safer than alcohol. as you are always in control of you body. anyone who has ever blacked out from over indulging knows that. the active ingredients in pot are readily absorbed in to the blood stream via the stomach and intestinal walls.....no need to smoke it so you get rid of the lung cancer risks....actually its a longer and more intense high aswell, however you need more material to start with to either eat it or dissolve it in something like Bacardi 151 or vodka.

i smoked pot heavily through high school and up until 6 years ago when my wife, then girlfriend, informed me it was the pot or her cause she didnt want it around her and her kids. went from smoking heavily to none at all overnight with no side effects.........tried doing that with the pain meds the docs gave me for my knees and wound up with a 3 day hangover from hell coming of of opiates(i hate opiate "highs" BTW)

i smoked heavily in high school while taking college prep type classes and had no issues, infact i was better at doing some parts of the calculus equations in my head better than most of the valedictorian types. had no problems. infact the only way i kept one of my jobs as long as i did in high school was by getting stoned before work....couldnt stand my boss but jobs were in short supply so i would leave school, get stoned, go to work, chef it up at the pizza joint enjoying the hell out of myself and not having a care in the world about my boss being a jerk(she was formerly married to my uncle and seemed to not like me for the family connection)

pot worked better as a sleep aid than any of the sleeping pills the doc has given me. so far ive tried 4 types of sleep meds, lost most of a month cause one made it impossible for my short term memory to be transfered into long term memory........i have no clue what happened last Oct/Nov because of damn doctor prescribed sleep meds...........never had these issues with pot........

all in all on the scale of things pot isnt that bad. i have no problems with someone sitting in their basement and smoking a bowl, so long as they are holding down a job and not bumming off welfair.......i went to school full time graduated with a 3.5 and always had a job when i was smoking.............would rather have the money spent on the War on (some) Drugs be spent on honestly educating kids rather than tossing them in jail for a lil pot...........so long as kids sit and spin on their lawns to get dizzy and fall over people will be doing drugs, aint going to stop it no matter what yah do........give the kids an honest no bull **** education on all the drugs out there(some like meth and PCP are really nasty **** that should be avoided at all costs) and let them fend for themselves.......unless yah want to pay to wrap them in bubble wrap, throw a helmet on them so they dont ever get hurt by anything...........everyone makes mistakes, how they pick themselves up and deal with the consequences matter, not the mistake itself....for the most part

Sounds like my life. Also very well put, I agree with 100% of everything you said. Education is the key, always has been. The problem is that education (information) can be manipulated just like everything else in the world. These are the days we live in. But oh well, just have a home brew. Cheers!

I'm not a big fan of drugs/drug habits, and I don't advocate the legalization of drugs. I don't bring that up in order to argue with anyone here, and I don't want this thread to take an ugly turn on that topic. I just think it's important to note that I'm a bit of a "tee-totaler" when it comes to drug use because the following statement has more impact if you know my stance:

WHAT THEY DID TO THOSE KIDS IS F'ING ABSURD!!!

What a horrible thing to do to a bunch of kids who are as likely to experiment with drugs as they are to go on to college and fantastic careers. If they wanted to impact the drug market in that area, and they wanted a "really cool" undercover operation including having a cop pose as a student, they should have gone after the source and left all the petty "criminals" alone.

MikeFlynn74 said:

Ennnnnnnnnntrapment!!!

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I believe the term in this situation would be 'honeypot'
One of the oldest tricks in the book. In this situation - way fkd up...

5 Is Not Enough

A good lawyer can def get them off- Its is enticement as well as entrapment especially for minors.

Waste of resources and time and the DA needs to be fired as well as those cops.

Is it just me or between the police and IRS, we seem to have more revenue officers than actual policing unites protecting people's liberties...

TxBrew said:

We won't see a change in our draconian drug laws. Our prison system is really fast becoming privatized. These corporations hire lobbyists to make sure these laws remain in tact else their customer base will decline.

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My friend, who is now a police officer was arrested in New Orleans a few years back. Basically wasn't told why he was being arrested, thrown in jail for several days. He failed to appear in court for the charges, well because they had him locked up (!). So he finally gets to court and they charge him with public drunkeness. So he pleads not guilty and they set the court date for a month later, so basically he would have had to spend a month in jail (they set the bail up to 2k after he 'missed' his first court appearance). So he plead guilty. But that's not my story really, when he was in there one homeless guy had been picked up for the 5th time that week. Basically it all hinges on what you are saying there. They get money to have him in jail.

So on another note, whatcha all gonna do when they make Homebrewing illegal ? I mean, after all we can just allow anybody to make an alcoholic beverage!

cubbies said:

The whole "war" is freaking unnecessary. I am not saying that every drug in the world should be legal and available at the local gas station, but putting otherwise law abiding citizens in jail for stuff like this is ridiculous.

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Amen brother.

OK, I am short on time here and have to go but I just saw this thread for the first time and felt a huge need to post the contrarian view. I lived in Falmouth for 20 years until I got divorced. My ex and two dtrs still live there. Both my dtrs went to Falmouth High. I'm pretty familiar with the story.

Personally, I'm thrilled to death that the local PD is being proactive and making an effort to clean up FHS. My kids are both really straight shooters, they didn't smoke, drink or do drugs of any sort while in HS. They are both in their 20's now and occasionally drink. They would regularly tell me about the stuff that was going on in that school while they went there. It was pretty much how I remembered HS, if you wanted it, you could get it.

If the local PD makes it harder to get, I'm ok with that. If a few punks get thier dicks slapped in the process, I'm ok with that. I'm not a virgin. I smoked a bale or two of weed in my youth. It's totally different when it's your kids. You might not get that yet. Someday you will. And when you do, you'll be calling up your local PD and telling the Chief that you are glad he's taking things seriously. Cause if it's easy to get a bag of grass in study hall, it's easy to get anything else. As a father, I all for making it really freakin' hard to get any of it in the local schools.

PTN

paulthenurse said:

OK, I am short on time here and have to go but I just saw this thread for the first time and felt a huge need to post the contrarian view. I lived in Falmouth for 20 years until I got divorced. My ex and two dtrs still live there. Both my dtrs went to Falmouth High. I'm pretty familiar with the story.

Personally, I'm thrilled to death that the local PD is being proactive and making an effort to clean up FHS. My kids are both really straight shooters, they didn't smoke, drink or do drugs of any sort while in HS. They are both in their 20's now and occasionally drink. They would regularly tell me about the stuff that was going on in that school while they went there. It was pretty much how I remembered HS, if you wanted it, you could get it.

If the local PD makes it harder to get, I'm ok with that. If a few punks get thier dicks slapped in the process, I'm ok with that. I'm not a virgin. I smoked a bale or two of weed in my youth. It's totally different when it's your kids. You might not get that yet. Someday you will. And when you do, you'll be calling up your local PD and telling the Chief that you are glad he's taking things seriously. Cause if it's easy to get a bag of grass in study hall, it's easy to get anything else. As a father, I all for making it really freakin' hard to get any of it in the local schools.

PTN

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Very well put. Much different opionions from parents with children whom these drugs may affect. Some kids experiment as part of growing up and maturing and turn out fine. Some start on the path and dont end up well.

paulthenurse said:

OK, I am short on time here and have to go but I just saw this thread for the first time and felt a huge need to post the contrarian view.
If the local PD makes it harder to get, I'm ok with that. If a few punks get thier dicks slapped in the process, I'm ok with that. As a father, I all for making it really freakin' hard to get any of it in the local schools.

PTN

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Double +1 there!...

I don't want these folks to feel as though what they say doesn't matter, but I would like to hear the other side of the story. This whole thing has a nice "it's the Man keeping us down" ring to it.

I happen to know a few things when it comes to the war on drugs. For one, I have been part of the "real" war on drugs. I spent 5 months during 1994 on a DEA support mission in Colombia. (During the time I was there, Pablo Escobar, the drug kingpin was taken down)

Fact for you to research #1. Macroeconomics 101... Look at the supply & demand curve for the war on drugs. The demand curve for drugs is very steep. When monetary forces of the Reagan war on drugs were enacted, the demand curve shifted left, creating a higher amount of income for the producers (on a smaller crop). AKA: By slowing the supply of drugs, the price increased exponentially, resulting in a higher income for the suppliers.

The cops in this story actually had it right. If you reduce the demand instead of supply, you hurt the supplier. Two things do this, 1. Education (thus the D.A.R.E. program and other educational programs for very young kids) 2. Local enforcement. (hitting the schools and the school kids hard to make them think twice before they have ANYTHING to do with illegal drugs)

Fact for you to research #2. What is the economic impact of a drug free society? Even though some of you are solidly for the right to light up in privacy, I'd love to see your reaction to the data on a "drug legal" vs. a "drug illegal" society. If you look up the data (start w/ google) you will find that you will have more money in your pocket without pot in your schools than with.

But don't take my word for it... do the research!

While I agree that I personally don't want to see kids doing drugs, I think the real issue is that their home lives are often not very good to begin with. Most teens take drugs to escape their problems, especially those at home. The problem isn't the drugs it's the people, imo. But what we have done is spiraled into a society that has neglected the value of family. Most cases of people that I know who grew up in a strong home never had a long term issue with drugs. And we can throw alcohol in there as well because it is a drug, not a narcotic but still a drug.

So we erroneously continue warring against something that is not the root cause, and therefore it's like fighting the air. (no offense to Seabee John on this as he did help in fighting evil) You remove one druglord and another comes in his place. It's like Castro's replacement waiting in the wings in Cuba. The problem is the demand, and the root of the demand. Imo, the war on drugs is being fought on the wrong front. Susie Q brought down Tommy at school, so next time the dealer will be more cautious.

1)Newton's Laws..Got it
2)First, Second, Third Laws of thermodynamics...Easy
3)Maxwell's Equations...Check
3)Schrodinger's Equation...A little tricky, but I can work with it...most of the time
4)How alcohol is legal and weed isnt....BOGGLES MY EFFING MIND! Just can't wrap my tiny little p-brain around it. Someone please help!

That's all I have to say about the WOD.

Evan! said:

How do these bastards sleep at night? If there were any justice in this world, they would be the ones in cuffs.

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I never thought I'd put someone's quote in my sig, but there she be!! That, in or out of context, is hilarious.

BTW, yes you are making a very good point I agree with.

zoebisch01 said:

And we can throw alcohol in there as well because it is a drug, not a narcotic but still a drug.

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How exactly is it not a narcotic. If alcohol is not a narcotic, then reefer surely is not.

And to the other posters. This has little to do with the war on drugs, it has little to do with "fixing the problem". It is the pointlessness of it all. Tons of money was spent in this sting in both real dollars and time. Then, on top of that, tons more money is going to be spent in the courts. What is our return on this money? What was accomplished?

Are hard, dangerous criminals getting of our streets and going to jail? No. Is anyone going to jail? Most likely not. Is the "drug problem" at this high school going to be fixed? Are these 9 kids arrested the only kids doing drugs at this school? We all know the answers people.

10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars were spent and nothing was accomplished. Zilch, nada. And this goes on in every city numerous times a year. Millions of dollars flushed down the drain. Maybe if we spent the same money on education, prevention and rehabilitation we could actually accomplish something.

Seabee John said:

For one, I have been part of the "real" war on drugs. I spent 5 months during 1994 on a DEA support mission in Colombia. (During the time I was there, Pablo Escobar, the drug kingpin was taken down)

But don't take my word for it... do the research!

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Be careful about having people do the research. As I recall, in the 80s Pablo's coke was being funnelled into LA courtesy of the CIA to fund a war in Nicaragua. It was convenient at the time of course.

cubbies said:

How exactly is it not a narcotic. If alcohol is not a narcotic, then reefer surely is not.

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You are correct...A true narcotic is actually a drug derived from opium but other drugs such as cocaine derivatives are sometimes grouped into the narcotic catagory and unfortunately sometimes marijuana is also.

As I recall, in the 80s Pablo's coke was being funnelled into LA courtesy of the CIA to fund a war in Nicaragua. It was convenient at the time of course.

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Just like they never did for the Afganis growing Opium, supporting the war against the Russians.

zoebisch01 said:

While I agree that I personally don't want to see kids doing drugs, I think the real issue is that their home lives are often not very good to begin with. Most teens take drugs to escape their problems, especially those at home. The problem isn't the drugs it's the people, imo. But what we have done is spiraled into a society that has neglected the value of family. Most cases of people that I know who grew up in a strong home never had a long term issue with drugs. And we can throw alcohol in there as well because it is a drug, not a narcotic but still a drug.

So we erroneously continue warring against something that is not the root cause, and therefore it's like fighting the air. (no offense to Seabee John on this as he did help in fighting evil) You remove one druglord and another comes in his place. It's like Castro's replacement waiting in the wings in Cuba. The problem is the demand, and the root of the demand. Imo, the war on drugs is being fought on the wrong front. Susie Q brought down Tommy at school, so next time the dealer will be more cautious.

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so the drugs should be legal cuz some kid got molested by a priest or something else bad happened in his life and he dosent know how to deal with it? While i agree the war should not be waged against the user i think you are way off base as to why teens get into drugs. I have friends that got into them because they were bored, they liked feeling high and to all of my knowlege they were never touched by their "uncle touches me funny".

Guess this sums up how I feel.

Fact for you to research #2. What is the economic impact of a drug free society? Even though some of you are solidly for the right to light up in privacy, I'd love to see your reaction to the data on a "drug legal" vs. a "drug illegal" society. If you look up the data (start w/ google) you will find that you will have more money in your pocket without pot in your schools than with.

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no offence intended...............but right now pot is illegal, demand and use are high........how is making it legal going to change anything..........the demand is still there, the use is still there, the hospital bills picked up on the taxpayers dime is still there.....only if its legal your not paying the DEA, State and local cops to search it out, arrest those who have it, pay the state to prosicute, pay the prisons to house those smoking dope...............i fully agree certain drugs such as meth and the like shouldnt be in the hads of adults let alone kids, but making the chit illegal and sending ppl to prison for it isnt doing jack chit to stop the use of it........

instead of paying to prosicute those who smoke a lil pot for personal use i would rather see the money spent in a no BS educating the affects of what exactly each drug does to the human body. the fact that X screws witht he brains ability to control the bodies temps and it can pretty much boil the brain in its own juices, that there is 20 times the tar in pot as cigarettes and you are highly likely to get lung cancer from smoking it, that meth is actually made from chemicals any sane person wouldnt allow to touch their bare skin, let alone smoke not to mention it is HIGHLY addictive.........i would rather the kids be educated properly so that they have the info to make the desision themselves not to do it...........the saying "drugs are bad because they are illegal" BS doesnt accomplish anything......any half way intellegent high schooler knows on the scale of things pot isnt any more harmful to the brain than alcohol.....the bad part comes that alcohol destroys the liver and pot screws with the lungs....but as far as perminant damage to the brain and body.......over indulging in pot is safer than over indulging in alcohol.............yah cant smoke enough pot to kill you but alcohol poisoning is easy enough to do...........

Ryanh1801 said:

Guess this sums up how I feel.

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But then how do you reconcile yourself with posts 67 and 69?

<SING>Twenty One Jump Street JUUUUMP</SING>

Ryanh1801 said:

Guess this sums up how I feel.

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Ah, yes, the old "if you're not breaking the law you have nothing to worry about" jib...the excuse for every single bad law ever known to man.

Unfortunately for you, the realm of justice is NOT as simply black and white as "obey low=good, break law=bad". Motives, facts, accomplices, states of mind, methods used in prosecuting the crime...they all come into play. What also comes into play is the fact that our justice system was formed in such a way as to give jurors the right, nay, the responsibility to protest what they feel are unjust laws by allowing them to refuse to convict someone for a crime even if ample evidence exists to prosecute the defendant, if the juror feels that the law that was broken is unjust. Like it or not, that's our justice system.

Our system of law also prides itself on procedural adherence...which is illustrated and exaggerated on shows like CSI. Evidence that is collected outside of protocol is not admissible. If crimes were committed because of entrapment by officers, this can also easily be overturned by a mildly competent attorney.

The point that I'm trying to make here is that contrary to your cute little picture, it's not as simple as "don't break the law and you don't have anything to worry about". That view is simplistic, naive and, quite frankly, juvenile.

Evan! said:

That view is simplistic, naive and, quite frankly, juvenile.

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you were giving good debate until you attacked. not a good way to debate.

Here is the problem, no matter how i feel on the subject, if it was put to a vote i would be willing to bet that it would not get 50% approval from the american public. Now you can go on to blame this person or that ad campaign but the fact remains the majority ofthe public, i think, would vote agaisnt legalizing it. Now, the second problem is there is no way the government would ever put that to vote to prove my theory.

You may say, everyone i know would vote for it, well, that is why you are on this forum complaining it is not legal, you probably do hang around a bunch of people that would be for it.

My last point, more for jest but partly true in my mind, lets say they did put the legalization of pot up for vote, i am guessing that unless they have free doritos avaliable at the polls alot of the constituents that would be voting would be too high to leave the couch.

Evan! said:

The point that I'm trying to make here is that contrary to your cute little picture, it's not as simple as "don't break the law and you don't have anything to worry about". That view is simplistic, naive and, quite frankly, juvenile.

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You can say that all you want Evan, but its the truth!. Just because you don't believe in a law, doesn't mean its a "Bad" law. Not with drugs but I have had hot chicks ask me to get them beer before or to let them into the bar I used to work at for 21, but you know what, I have self control and say no.. People now a days lack the ability to take responsibility. You break the law you take that chance of getting caught, and when you do get caught take the punishment like a man, and don't blame it one "the man" going after you.

Reverend JC said:

<snip>i am guessing that unless they have free doritos avaliable at the polls alot of the constituents that would be voting would be too high to leave the couch.

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Sounds like you're used to the heavy indica blends. Might I suggest a nice sativa? :cross:

Reverend JC said:

so the drugs should be legal cuz some kid got molested by a priest or something else bad happened in his life and he dosent know how to deal with it? While i agree the war should not be waged against the user i think you are way off base as to why teens get into drugs. I have friends that got into them because they were bored, they liked feeling high and to all of my knowlege they were never touched by their "uncle touches me funny".

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That's not what I said, I am not so much making the case for/against legality as much as I am saying that the real battlefront should be against countering demand not wasting time trying to cut off supply. It's not going to happen. Chronic drug users have a problem (and I don't always feel it's 'our' responsibility to 'fix' them either, just making a distinction) they are not just 'bored'.

...
...

in general.....

I was also making the case that everyone always says "drugs are bad". "Drugs are bad", that's been drilled into everyone since day one of the 'war on drugs'. Interestingly when Marijuana became illegal, the most prescribed legal drug became Methanphetamines. The problem isn't with the drug, it's with the individual's lack of control. And those kids that do get molested, they probably end up going to the head doc and get an antidepressant or some other drug. It just shifts form.

Again, I probe the question. What would y'all do if Homebrewing became illegal tomorrow? After all it's a drug and we have people dying from alcohol every day. We see it here quite often. What if, right now the AFT had informants in the midst of HBT waiting, watching. What if you went over the legal limit (maybe even by accident, does everyone follow the amounts exactly?) and there was a sting operation on you?

Ryanh1801 said:

You can say that all you want Evan, but its the truth!. Just because you don't believe in a law, doesn't mean its a "Bad" law. Not with drugs but I have had hot chicks ask me to get them beer before or to let them into the bar I used to work at for 21, but you know what, I have self control and say no.. People now a days lack the ability to take responsibility. You break the law you take that chance of getting caught, and when you do get caught take the punishment like a man, and don't blame it one "the man" going after you.

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I can say it all I want because it is the truth, Ryan. Not enough of our populace realizes that we the people can in effect overturn what we the people see as bad laws by refusing, as jurors, to convict on those charges.

What you also refuse to acknowledge is the established principles of entrapment and enticement. This has nothing to do with "being a man". This has to do with the overarching principles of living in a free society that values personal freedoms and individual liberties in some form...and also one that values established procedure when it comes to law enforcement and prosecution...and also one that values the idea of a law actually meaning something. When I say "meaning something", I mean that the prosecutors who are prosecuting people make sure that they are trying to achieve some sort of ideal end rather than simply running up the numbers. For example, in this case, would prosecuting these kids really help towards the goal of eradicating drugs? Prosecutors have to make judgment calls, and they can choose not to try a case if they feel it is unnecessary or unwarranted. So, should they prosecute with a goal of tallying up as many prosecutions as they can? Or should they prosecute with a higher goal, a purpose, driving them?

In essence, Ryan, you are advocating for having laws for laws' sake....and that when a particular law is broken, it doesn't matter what the circumstances surrounding it are. Again, I'm telling you that our justice system does not work in such a primitive, simplistic fashion. Prosecutors, judges and jurors have choices that they can (and do) exercise when it comes to judging the overarching point of the law. If our laws have no purpose other than to prosecute people, then our justice system little more than a club with which to wail on the populace---yet in reality, our justice system should strive to achieve a greater ideal than simply making sure the absolute letter of every law is followed. Hence the terms "letter of the law" vs. "spirit of the law".

Again, your view of the American justice system is extremely simplistic, and runs contrary to the idea of achieving ideal goals via said system.