Brew going bad after bottling - help!

Hi all,

I'm fairly new to brewing (I'll be bottling my 5th brew in the next few days), and I have a recurring problem.
About two weeks after I bottle a brew, it tastes really good. In the next couple of weeks though, it starts developing bad yeast flavours. A month or two after bottling, it has a really strong yeast bite, which ruins the beer.

This has happened with a few different brews:

1. A Pale Ale kit made up with dextrose and nothing else.
2. A Lager kit made up with some dry malt extract and some dextrose, and Saflager S-23 instead of the kit yeast.
3. A malt-extract pilsner using Saflager W-34 (I think?) yeast. This one is just starting to go bad now - it was really nice two weeks ago.

I used Isinglass finings in two of these, and not the other.
I'm very careful about keep everything sterile etc. and my beers are gassing up nicely in the bottles and everything - it's just this one (major!) problem.

What am I doing wrong??

were are you storing your beer??

and are the bottles clear/brown/green??

The reason we are asking all of these questions is because it is easier to tell you what may be the real problem instead of just making guesses.

This is one of the reasons I take really good notes about the process, sampling, tasting, bottling, etc.

We need more info to be able to give you a better answer instead of just guessing what went wrong where.

One problem I see is your heavy use of sugar. SUgar should not be more than 20% of your fermentable. Anything over that will turn out cidery tasting.

Do you use a hydrometer? Could be you're bottling too soon.

Are You Possibly Shaking Up Yeast From Bottom Of Bottle Before You Pour.

cap46 said:

Are You Possibly Shaking Up Yeast From Bottom Of Bottle Before You Pour.

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Another good question...

The lager and the pilsner both had ~20% or less dextrose. I have got detailed notes, I just wasn't sure what to tell you.

I use second-hand stubbies for bottling - from Boag's Draught, Boag's Premium, Heineken - a real variety. I wash, sterilise and rinse very thoroughly. The lager and pilsner each have only a thin layer of sediment, which I don't shake up before I pour.

I ferment at ~14-15 degrees Celcius when using the Saflager, and ~20-22 when using kit yeast. The brews are stored at room temperature to bottle-condition.

I used castor sugar to prime the bottles, because I was told that you use so little it doesn't matter.

What I find really strange is that the bad flavours only develop after 3 weeks or more, when before that the beer is nice...

is it possible that the caps aren't sealing properly? If not you could try some flip tops just for sh%^s and giggles.

I've never heard of castor sugar.

I usually prime with DME and corn sugar (sometimes).

I suspect he's in the UK then, Castor Sugar is used in baking a fair bit, it's very fine sugar, but still crystals, not powder.
For what it's worth, I use raw cane sugar (brown) for bottling and have never had a problem.
K

Maybe he didn't boil it?

I just bottled an Irish Ale on Sat. It was in the secondary for 2 months. It's pretty clear now.

Castor sugar is just finely ground cane sugar.

My bottles are definitely sealed properly, because they are remaining pressurised.
I only have a single fermenter, and bottle from that a few days after fermentation has finished. Could that be a problem?

I've decided I'll prime my bottles with dextrose this time around, and wait longer before bottling, so I get less sediment (although my first ever brew had virtually none in the bottles, and still went bad).

Has anyone else had this problem of strong yeast bite developing?

No yeastiness here... wonder if it's a sanitation issue, and what you're mistaking for yeast flavour is actually some kind of bacteria?

I have taken to putting at least 3 of the flip-top Grolsh bottles in each bottling, as controls. I know they seal. So if they work out, and others don't, then I know where the problem lies.

I don't think your problem is the 1 stage fermentation.

Are there any rings in the necks of your bottles at the top of the beer?

If so, then you have a sanitation problem.

Another thing to consider, even if you don't let your beer sit in a secondary for a couple weeks, you should still let your beer sit in the primary for a while. Personally, I won't bottle a beer until it's been in the primary/secondary for around three weeks. This allows the yeast and sediment to settle out, and the beer to clear.

If this isn't the problem, I wonder if you've got an infection. Like Homebrewer_99 says, if you've got a small ring on the inside of the neck of the bottle, you're getting contamination somewhere.

Definitely no rings in the neck of the beer or anything like that. I am quite thorough with my sanitation too, so I doubt three brews in a row could have become contaminated.

They are definitely yeast flavours, too. I'm Australian - if anyone knows what Vegemite tastes like, the flavour in my beer is a subtle version of that.
(For those who don't know, Vegemite is a concentrated yeast extract used as a spread on toast etc.)

Maybe I should get a second fermenter, and let the beer sit (off the sediment) for a while before bottling...I may just be getting too much yeast in my bottles.

Do you always get a noticeable layer of sediment on the bottom of bottles? My brews all have that...

We all get some sediment because we don't filter.

If you are bottling too soon then you would get more yeast than most of us.

Fermentation is a natural process that you cannot rush.

It seems that have every aspect of the process pretty well under control. I don't know if I can help you any further unless we got more info.

Saying you should get a second fermenter is the answer. Most of us do a secondary. I recommend it.

This is purly speculation, but could it be that you're getting enough yeast in the bottles to be getting off flavors from it autolyzing over time?

Some good news - I had a couple of my pilsners last night, and they were free from any bad flavours. Maybe it was just those first two brews.

I'll have a look at getting a secondary, and not rush to bottle so much any more. I'll also make sure I use <20% dextrose for all future brews.
Thanks for the suggestions from everyone.

That's good news. Definitely cut down on the sugar.

One thing I always recommend is you can't push a natural process. That's why people get bad results.

You know an ale is supposed to be real quick right? Well, I bottled an Irish Ale last Sat that was in the secondary for 2 months. I was in no hurry and it tastes great.

Are you mistakenly taken the differance in taste to be yeast when it is just the beer changing as it gets older. All of the batches I have brewed have changed over time but I have really never ended up with a yeasty taste.Unless I have shaken a bottle, even if by accident such as driving somebody's house.

Somehow I doubt an infection could be mistaken for a "yeasty taste". Of course you could have an aeration issue - you aren't aerating, stirring vigorously or pouring the beer at any point after the yeast is pitched (and wort aerated) are you? However, I don't think a stale beer could be mistaken for yeasty either.. just a thought though.

What is odd though is that a green beer will often taste yeasty yet you say the taste doesn't develop until a month or so later. Yeast tastes can be the result of yeast autolyzing - as in leaving the yeast on the trub in the primary too long. I suppose if you bottled way to early (before fermentation was complete) then you might be a bunch of yeast and byproducts in the bottle and the autolyzation process could then start taking place in the bottle. although, if you bottled that early it seems as though you'd have bottle bombs by the time the month had passed. Of course this is purely speculation...

I'd say leave it in the primary for 5 days and then let it sit a minimum of a week and a half in your new secondary (go buy one if you haven't yet). Use a hydrometer to ensure that the fermentation is complete.

Anyhow, I'm glad to hear the last batch turned out good, hopefully the problem has solved itself.

Yes, we are all happy for you!

The problem isn't gone...brews #2 & 3 have the bad taste now...



I hadn't heard of 'skunking' until yesterday. Could this be what happened to my beer - too much light?

If so, will it go away over time, or get worse, or what?

Where are you keeping them while they age in the bottles? I always make sure my beer boxes are covered if any light can reach them.

gibfried said:

Where are you keeping them while they age in the bottles? I always make sure my beer boxes are covered if any light can reach them.

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After bottling, all but a few bottles are stored in boxes, so won't be exposed to any light. I've been leaving my fermenter where it probably gets both sunlight and fluorescent light though...

I store all my boxes of bottles in boxes in my basement. As for my fermenters I wrap a beach towel around them to keep all light out.

cap46 said:

As for my fermenters I wrap a beach towel around them to keep all light out.

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I think I'll do this from now on...

cap46 said:

I store all my boxes of bottles in boxes in my basement. As for my fermenters I wrap a beach towel around them to keep all light out.

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A large dark t-shirt or sweat shirt will also work.

All you can do is keep trying to improve different things in your process, until the problem goes away. I was having some issues that I felt were related to screw-tops, but I think actually I was not stirring the priming sugar in the beer enough... afraid to aerate. So I got varying levels of carbonation - not the bottles' fault at all... Just keep trying, sham.

Hot side aeration can cause long term flavor stability problems. I haven't had this issue as I tend to drink the beer pretty quickly and I don't have enough bottles or space to have two or three batches sitting around aging. So I can't tell you exactly how "long term flavor instability" tastes.. but it might be an issue. I know I asked you this before but, are you aerating, shaking, vigoriously stirring, or pouring your beer anytime the beer is above 80 F (during brewing OR during fermentation)? The ONLY time the beer should be introduced to any air at all is when you pitch the yeast.. practically any other time in the process and you risk aeration and the resultant flavor problems.

As for light causing skunkiness that is an issue I also haven't had to deal with personally but I do know that flourescent edit: no, scratch that *incandescent* light does not react with beer the way sunlight does. Supposedly it's sunlight and the store lights that do this.. however I'm no expert. Regardless, I've taken to wrapping my glass carboys in a damp towel and placing them in a dark spot just to be safe. Brown bottles are of course preferred to green or clear because they prevent or reduce the reaction with the sunlight.. so, what color are your bottles?

If I had to guess at this point I think you're aerating your beer somehow. Good luck tracking down the problem.. and I'm impressed that you've stuck with a hobby that hasn't been as fruitful as you might have hoped.

edit: I guess bottle color doesn't matter if they're in boxes.. doh! And no, skuniness will not get better with age. If it's light or aeration that's causing the problem I doubt the beer will improve.. it'll probably get worse. Seems like the only problem that time remedies is bitterness. Of course young beers, flat beers, and very dark and complex beers all benefit from additional aging but I wouldn't charactize those issues as flavor problems - they're consumer problems

Don't worry; I'm not giving up!! I love brewing, so I'll just keep refining my technique until my beers are great!!

your problem is that you are not drinking your brew fast enough.

Shambolic, I'm going to go back to your original statement of the problem. You are tasting a yeasty flavor. An infected beer won't make it past your nose. I would like to suggest you try a new strain of yeast from a completely different supplier. I am suspecting traits of the yeast strains .
The only way to isolate this is to run the same beer style with a different yeast strain with all else the same.

This is a stupid question, unrelated to the topic at hand, but do you have skunks in Australia? If not, how would one know what a skunky beer smells like? Does the term "skunky" when refering to a beer really help? I'd assume there are skunks in Europe, but Australia is a continent filled with crazy looking marsupials and "Australian Rules" football hooligans.

If your fermenter is in a place where it can recieve direct sunlight, I'd be willing to bet that is part of the problem. A yeasty bite can also be caused by siphoning too much sediment at bottling, not using a secondary fermenter, not letting the yeast settle out of the beer, or agitating the beer before bottling.

I have some theories.

My very first brew used a kit yeast (poor quality, no doubt), and 1kg of dextrose. Ouch...

My next one was an attempt at a lager - bad idea for a beginner. I used a good yeast - saflager, but again, quite a bit of dextrose in the brewing. This beer is coming up to three months in the bottles, so I'll give it another taste then, and report back.

My third brew was an attempted pilsner - another bad idea. This has developed cidery flavours rather than the yeasty bite of the first two.

Was that a theory...?

Anyway, I just bottled an ale that is very promising, and have another on the go that should also turn out well.
I think my newly-refined brewing technique (including only malt fermentables, no dextrose) should yield the results I'm after.

I think since the problem is occurring over time it could be one of two things or a combination of them.

the first might be the oxidation of the wort during the chilling process. I'm new to brewing but I've done alot of research. I read that if the wort is not chilled fast enough (within 20 minutes) to below 80F this can result in a cardboard like flavor (or at least a taste similar to how cardboard smells as I've never tried cardboard). This combined with a cidery taste from too much conditioning sugar could perhaps result in
1.dull(cardboard) flavor
2.tangy(cider) flavor
equals...something like a yeast flavor!

possibly. it would hurt to pay particular attention to these two processes.

BT