Secret of Stout

Hi,

As an Extract Brewer I've had 3 stouts - 1 Irish Stout, 1 basic stout and now an Oatmeal Stout - go off. As in "off" I mean infection or nasty diacetyl flavoured-off. I want to make a Porter but...

I brewed a great Brown Ale, a really pleasant Pale Ale and my Dark Ale seems fine thus far.

Is there something about stouts that are better as all-grains, or is this a complete fluke on my part?

Cheers,
J

The only stouts I have brewed were extract brews w/specialty grains . . . and my experience has been the opposite of yours. My extract stouts always seem to turn out better than my other beers made in the same manner. I even thought about continuing to do extract stouts when I converted to AG, but fresh extract is just too expensive for me. . .

I have yet to do an AG stout . . . waiting until early or mid-fall.

jaymack said:

Hi,

As an Extract Brewer I've had 3 stouts - 1 Irish Stout, 1 basic stout and now an Oatmeal Stout - go off. As in "off" I mean infection or nasty diacetyl flavoured-off. I want to make a Porter but...

I brewed a great Brown Ale, a really pleasant Pale Ale and my Dark Ale seems fine thus far.

Is there something about stouts that are better as all-grains, or is this a complete fluke on my part?

Cheers,
J

Click to expand...

preface: I am also an extract brewer.

If your stouts are high gravity brews, the problem might be underpitching the yeast.

Question: your batches went 'off' before bottling? Or after bottling?

During the grown phase, the yeast produce diacetyl. They will re-consume this later, but if the growth phase lasts a long time (ie; there were not enough yeast pitched to start) the yeast can produce more diacetyl than they can later consume, and you end up with that buttery taste.

Do you use dry or liquid yeast, and do you make a starter wort for the yeast or not?

-walker

I use dry yeast and make a starter.
As for when they went off, the "regular" and Irish Stout were off before bottling. My Oatmeal was bottled about a week and a half ago and I thought it MAY have been starting to go off when it went in the bottle.
Opening one last night, there was a film on the top (in the bottle)
Pouring into a glass, a nice bit of head followed, but there appeared to be a circular film-like on the top. best description is like oil on water.
Should I be using MORE yeast for Stouts?

Thanks for the advice

jaymack said:

I use dry yeast and make a starter.
As for when they went off, the "regular" and Irish Stout were off before bottling. My Oatmeal was bottled about a week and a half ago and I thought it MAY have been starting to go off when it went in the bottle.

Click to expand...

Since the diacetyl is formed during the yeast's growth phase, it should have been present in full force prior to bottling. Diacetyl content should not (as far as I know) increase after bottling (I had this happen once, but it only was because I pitched more yeast at bottling time due to paranoia about long secondary times.)

jaymack said:

I use dry yeast and make a starter.
Opening one last night, there was a film on the top (in the bottle)
Pouring into a glass, a nice bit of head followed, but there appeared to be a circular film-like on the top. best description is like oil on water.

Click to expand...

The "oil on water" comment kind of sounds like fusel alcohol (also known as fusel oil). This can be caused by a couple of things. One of those things is a fermentation temp that is too high. The other thing that can cause them is underpitching yeast. Does it taste a little harsh (alcohol burn?) That could be fusel alcohol.

reference: http://www.homebrewzone.com/fusel-alcohols.htm

If you are really getting diacetyl and fusel alcohols in your stouts, I would suspect underpitching, but you DID say you made a starter, so....

Do you aerate the wort very well before pitching the yeast?

jaymack said:

Should I be using MORE yeast for Stouts?

Click to expand...

For stouts (or ANY high gravity beer, for that matter) pitching as much yeast as you can is a good idea. The yeast have a LOT of work to do on such beers.

-walker

Thanks for the tips. I am, by choice, a Stout drinker and not being able to create my own is a wee frustrating

- Aerate before pitching - I don't normally. I do a strong aerateing (SP?) once the yeast has been added for a good 5 to 10 minutes.

Well... back to the drawing board. Thanks again

J

jaymack said:

Thanks for the tips. I am, by choice, a Stout drinker and not being able to create my own is a wee frustrating

- Aerate before pitching - I don't normally. I do a strong aerateing (SP?) once the yeast has been added for a good 5 to 10 minutes.

Well... back to the drawing board. Thanks again

J

Click to expand...

well, as long as you are aerating the wort, it really doesn't matter if you do it right BEFORE pitching or right AFTER pitching, so that's probably not your issue.

I'm out of ideas for you man, but I can sympathize with not being able to brew a batch of your favorite style of beer. I've been going through the same thing for a few years with porters, hence the name of "Holy Grail" for my porter recipe... I just can get it right. I'm currently on my 12th attempt, and it's pretty good, but not EXACTLY what I want. Maybe lucky number 13 will do the trick...

-walker

jaymack said:

Aerate before pitching - I don't normally. I do a strong aerateing (SP?) once the yeast has been added for a good 5 to 10 minutes.

Click to expand...

It doesn't really make sense to me why your problems would be unique to stouts--are your stouts all high-gravity compared to the batches that have been succesful?

Do you do full or partial boils? If you do full boils, or if you do partial boils and top off with pre-boiled water, then you may very well need more intensive aeration. (Boiling forces the O2 out of the wort or water.) You can get an aquarium pump and sanitary filter setup fairly cheap--it might be worth a shot.

CW - The stouts have all been between 1055 to 1060 OG

- You can get an aquarium pump and sanitary filter setup fairly cheap--it might be worth a shot -

Sorry - what the heck is this all about?

jaymack said:

CW - The stouts have all been between 1055 to 1060 OG

- You can get an aquarium pump and sanitary filter setup fairly cheap--it might be worth a shot -

Sorry - what the heck is this all about?

Click to expand...

Hmm...1055 to 1060 is not particularly high gravity. Fermentation temps?

The aquarium pump thingy...

http://pivo.northernbrewer.com/nbst...FB0E8F709F2D1CCBE74B44D5F?searchTerm=aeration

agreed... 1.060 is not exactly "high gravity" so my theories are all going straight out the window.

The pump is fancy gear for aerating the wort.

-walker

I thought I saw a thread somewhere about water hardness for stouts needing to be higher than for lighter beers. Could this be the factor that only affects your stouts. For what its worth I brewed an Irish stout and used bottled water and it turned out OK but my tastes aren't that well developed.

Maybe this will help:https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=5634&highlight=water+hardness

Jason