Training Wheels Berliner - good intro to sours

What does it smell like? Whatever you got dried the wort out pretty fast for wild yeast.

Smells a little sour - a little... bready? Not as sour as the last round, I imagine the fermentation knocked that back. I took another gravity sample this AM and it was more like 1.01 @ 72*F, so I was reading high because it was warmer yesterday. I have it in a keg and I'll see if it comes back with anything, if not I'll let it age a bit.

Very much need to control my process a bit better. If I want to be doing this as single vessel boil/sour/pasturize/ferment, I need to build a heat stick to use in my kegs so that the vessel can be sealed during the non-heating processes.

Guess this means I need to pick up some Omega for souring, since I've tried/liked the WLp677 - I think I'd appreciate being able to use it without turning my fermentation chamber into a sweat lodge.

The temps and souring speed really make the Omega blend easy to work with. I like that heat stick idea though, pretty crafty.

Thanks for the recipe! Wish I would have seen this before I brewed a BW last night. I used a 7 day starter of 677 at room temperature and the extract recipe was slightly different. I have the fermentation going on in a bucket in my garage and it has kept the beer over 90 degrees. Last night I checked on it and the airlock was going crazy. It's my first attempt at a sour so I don't expect too much from this...

I have a few questions regarding your recipe/setup.. first, where did you purchase your Omega yeast? What do you use to ferment 3 gallon batches? Do you have a 3 gallon carboy?

danszabrew said:

I have a few questions regarding your recipe/setup.. first, where did you purchase your Omega yeast? What do you use to ferment 3 gallon batches? Do you have a 3 gallon carboy?

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I got the lacto from Ritebrew.com but it looks like they're out of stock. I'm not positive but I think there's another smaller vendor that carries it. Might take a little googling to find.
I do ~5.25 gal batches so I can save some lacto and still get 5gal into the keg. The main thing is filling your fermentor completely and leaving as little headspace as possible.
Are you using mini kegs by any chance?

Yeah I found another vendor i was just curious where you got yours. I thought I read that you were doing 3 gallon batches my bad.. Im still using 5 gallon kegs I've never had any mini kegs.

I plan on trying this recipe sometime within the next month. When i do ill document the whole process with pics.. You know.. For science

Thanks again for the recipe man

danszabrew said:

Yeah I found another vendor i was just curious where you got yours. I thought I read that you were doing 3 gallon batches my bad.. Im still using 5 gallon kegs I've never had any mini kegs.

I plan on trying this recipe sometime within the next month. When i do ill document the whole process with pics.. You know.. For science

Thanks again for the recipe man

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No worries you mentioned 3 gal batches so I thought maybe you were using mini kegs. I asked because I came up with an improved method for those willing to sour in a corny.

KeyWestBrewing said:

No worries you mentioned 3 gal batches so I thought maybe you were using mini kegs. I asked because I came up with an improved method for those willing to sour in a corny.

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Do tell!

I noticed that 3 days is about how long it takes to get the sourness I like but with each day the headspace in the carboy gets a little bigger. Not a big deal but I get some very subtle funk. So I took some of the cold side aeration tricks floating around and applied them to the souring process. It should work with a lot of people's set up if you have a kettle with a spigot and a way to rest the kettle above a keg.
Fill your keg with sanitizer and use co2 to empty the keg. Connect a QD to the liquid out post on the corny keg and hose clamp the other end of the tubing to the spigot on the kettle. Add a gas QD to the keg with the other end of the tubing sitting in sanitizer. Carefully add your lacto starter to the kettle and open the spigot. That's all there is to it. You end up with a 100% filled keg, completely purged and sealed. No leaks, no growing headspace, nada. So far I've only done this once but it was really easy and the results were extremely clean. It's a definite improvement for quick souring beers. Here's a pic...

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1471004109.430490.jpg

That looks awesome good idea! Will have to try that next batch.

One more bw related question.. I pitched 677 in my bw on Wednesday night and kept the temperature at 90-100 the last 2 days. The 677 gave a 2-3 inch thick kraussen Wednesday into Thursday and subsided last night. Checked ph last night and it was still around 6.. Do I just need to wait longer?

Im unfamiliar with 677 but I'd think it should have dropped the ph lower than that by now if the lacto is working its magic. I know @BajaBrewer made this using 677 and mentioned getting good results in ~36 hours. Im wondering if you didn't get much growth in the starter since it was at room temp, resulting in a low pitch count. Maybe try leaving it a couple more days in the 90s to see if you get anywhere.

Okay thanks! Sorry to hijack the thread

How long do you guys leave this beer on fruit before kegging/bottling? I split mine half on raspberries half on peaches two weeks ago and I'm getting antsy.

Masterofgravity said:

How long do you guys leave this beer on fruit before kegging/bottling? I split mine half on raspberries half on peaches two weeks ago and I'm getting antsy.

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I add the fruit to the keg. As for time it sort of depends on the fruit and what your after. 2-5 days is normally what I do but I've left fruit in there until the keg kicks too.

Wanted to post an update..
Started the sour culture (2L) at 1.040 on 8/17 - Pitched the OYL at 95 and kept it in my garage. Temperature stayed above 86 in the flask for 2 days.
On the 3rd day he rose again from the dead
No really.. on the 3rd day I brewed the 4# of DME and pitched the lacto culture ( I ended up with 1.035 OG)
Lots of really cool activity a few hours later.. almost looked like it was swirling in the carboy
On 8/21 prior to pasteurizing I took a 2k flask of the soured wort. I basically took the last 2L from the carboy.. it was almost all lacto - awesome!
I took the Lacto and sanitized 4 mason jars and added some preservative free apple juice for the lacto to eat once I wake them up.

After that, I pasteurized and cooled to 65.. Pitched White labs German Kolsch yeast made from a 1L starter

Took gravity reading and sample last night
I've been checking on the fermentation and this yeast produced 0 kraussen but plenty of activity for a 1.035 OG
Gravity was 1.010 already
Sample was great! I had this side by side with Victory's Elderweisse and the color was almost dead on. Obviously the Elderweisse has a more complex flavor but this is a plain jane berliner right now.
PH is 3.34

I found a cool site that had all kinds of syrup recipes.. my wife likes peach so I made a peach syrup.. looking forward to trying it once I hit below 1.009


Thanks again KeyWestBrewing.. awesome recipe already. I ordered more DME already for the next batchView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1472061035.148185.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1472061052.466657.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1472061074.039772.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1472061085.288729.jpg

Glad to hear your enjoying the results!

Made 2nd batch.. I'm looking to copy your watermelon idea..
This is what I did, correct me if i'm wrong:
I juiced an entire watermelon, froze the juice in 2 gallon ziplock bags
I took them out after several hours of freezing and separated the juice from the ice
I repeated this one more time and took the "water" out again

Now I'm left with a small mason jar of really concentrated watermelon juice.
Did you just add this whole jar to the carboy/keg after fermentation is complete?

Thanks again for the recipe man

Add it to the keg

Hello all,

Very excited to try this simple recipe. I have all of the necessary ingredients, and am currently waiting on my OYL-605 starter to finish up. I'm about a day in, and I can't lie I cant see much going on in there. I had ordered my 605 online, and when it arrived already pretty warm I had refrigerated it for a few days. On starter day, I took that and a silly can of one of those canned worts, that I happened upon through some Northern Brewer deal I think, out of the fridge. I let them warm up to about room temp, maybe still a little cooler, and proceeded with the direction on the can, which were to combine the can with 16oz water (I also used slightly cooler water than room temp) and add the yeast. As of now, about 24 hrs later, I don't see much going on other than the wort being maybe slightly cloudier. I have been swirling the flask around periodically since. I am totally unfamiliar with making starters out of souring bacteria so I just don't know if that is normal. My thermostat reads 70 fahrenheit as of now, so I don't believe that to be an issue.

Maybe I dont have a problem, but I just figured I'd check in since it doesn't have much visible difference to it like a normal yeast starter, and like I said I'm totally new. Thanks in advance. If anyone has a picture of their OYL-605 starter or something similar that would be helpful.

NickersonC said:

Hello all,

Very excited to try this simple recipe. I have all of the necessary ingredients, and am currently waiting on my OYL-605 starter to finish up. I'm about a day in, and I can't lie I cant see much going on in there. I had ordered my 605 online, and when it arrived already pretty warm I had refrigerated it for a few days. On starter day, I took that and a silly can of one of those canned worts, that I happened upon through some Northern Brewer deal I think, out of the fridge. I let them warm up to about room temp, maybe still a little cooler, and proceeded with the direction on the can, which were to combine the can with 16oz water (I also used slightly cooler water than room temp) and add the yeast. As of now, about 24 hrs later, I don't see much going on other than the wort being maybe slightly cloudier. I have been swirling the flask around periodically since. I am totally unfamiliar with making starters out of souring bacteria so I just don't know if that is normal. My thermostat reads 70 fahrenheit as of now, so I don't believe that to be an issue.

Maybe I dont have a problem, but I just figured I'd check in since it doesn't have much visible difference to it like a normal yeast starter, and like I said I'm totally new. Thanks in advance. If anyone has a picture of their OYL-605 starter or something similar that would be helpful.

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Steps 1 and 2...

KeyWestBrewing said:

I recently whipped up a few batches of this and it was so ridiculously easy I had to post it up. If you've never messed with sours I think this is a good way to get your feet wet because the process is very simple. This won't make the most complex Berliner in the world but I've found its a great base for Florida Weisse and the turnaround is extremely fast. The color is a touch darker than the style guidelines but thats compensated for in convenience.







Grain Bill



4# Bavarian Wheat DME







The Process



1) Use the Bavarian Wheat DME to make a 100g/1L starter for the Omega lacto blend 24-48 hours before brewday. No stir plate, put on an airlock and just leave it alone. Anywhere between 70-90f is fine.



2) Brewday - heat 6gal water to 200f, add DME and stir until its all dissolved. Thats it! Cool the batch down to 90f, rack to fermenter and pitch 1L lacto starter.



*Very Important - you need to be very careful not to oxygenate the wort or this could ruin the beer. To limit oxygen exposure use a smaller fermenter, or up the batch size, so that the fermenter is filled completely full leaving only about an inch of headspace between the wort and airlock. OYL605 doesn't krausen....

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Your not really going to see any activity but the lacto is working. Though now that you swirled the starter around that aeration could make it get funky. If it doesn't your in the clear but if it does you might have to try and use a small portion of that starter to propagate another one and restart the process of growing the lacto count up again. This process is very sensitive and a little air can make a night and day difference in the final results. As long as you follow the steps exactly as I outlined them in the first post you'll be good.

I second that^^ I made 2 batches of this recently and you won't really see much activity in the starter side/souring side. What you really want to measure on the sour end is the ph. The OYL 605 doesn't kraussen but you might see some airlock activity. What temperature is the starter now? If you're only around 70 you might need to just wait it out. I did both of my starters and both of my souring at 90 degrees.

This is how I did it:
Made starter , cooled to 90 ish
Pitched oyl 605 used an airlock on a flask

After 48 hours I checked the ph of the starter. Both times around 3.3-3.4

After it hits the 3.4 range it can still drop but not as rapidly

Add dme and boil
Cool to 90 ish
Pitch starter and keep at 90 ish in the garage

Checked ph 48 hours later.. 3.34
Boiled again pitched kolsch yeast from starter made the same night as the initial boil and sour starter pitch.

Both times I used wlp029 at 65 for 10 days

I brewed an all grain variation batch of this and thought it turned out awesome so I wanted to share the results. I adjusted the ABV to 6% and also dry hopped with 4oz of Nelson Sauvin. The rest of the process was pretty much what outlined in the OP with 2 exception. First, I soured in a keg and second I only used 1# Bavarian DME which I added during the post souring pasteurization to help bring back some body/head retention.
The results are extremely juicy and refreshing. I will definitely be experimenting more with some other hops on this. Galaxy in particular would be a great hop for this and would probably be killer blended with Nelson.

KeyWestBrewing said:

I brewed an all grain variation batch of this and thought it turned out awesome so I wanted to share the results. I adjusted the ABV to 6% and also dry hopped with 4oz of Nelson Sauvin. The rest of the process was pretty much what outlined in the OP with 2 exception. First, I soured in a keg and second I only used 1# Bavarian DME which I added during the post souring pasteurization to help bring back some body/head retention.
The results are extremely juicy and refreshing. I will definitely be experimenting more with some other hops on this. Galaxy in particular would be a great hop for this and would probably be killer blended with Nelson.

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Mind if I ask the grain bill?
Fermenting yeast?
I am considering giving this a try using Oyl 605 to kettle sour oyl 212 "bring da funk" afterwards.

Pyg said:

Mind if I ask the grain bill?
Fermenting yeast?
I am considering giving this a try using Oyl 605 to kettle sour oyl 212 "bring da funk" afterwards.

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I'm still trying different barley/wheat proportions and mixing it up between Pils and Vienna for the barley. Below is what I used on this batch though. Yeast was 2 packs of Nottingham.

70% Flaked White Wheat
30% German Pils

After souring what kind of yeast is pitched?

Pyg said:

After souring what kind of yeast is pitched?

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I was originally concerned that a yeast may have trouble launching in an acetic,soured environment such as 4.5ph to start. I was making double stepped liquid starters and of course they work fine. Then on a subsequent batch, I was out of liquid yeast (WLP001 was my mainstay) so I pitched one rehydrated sachet of US-05. It worked as well, or better, than anything I had used previously. I did a taste test of two finished Gose beers, one with WLP001 and the other with US-05. I could taste no discernable difference. From that point forward I have used dry, rehydrated yeasts such as Nottingham or 05, not only for the convenience of dry, but also for the cost savings.

4oz of hops seems like a lot but I guess with the reduced hop utilization in a lower pH environment it makes sense. Dry hopped for about a week I guess? As for the poster above, I'm sure the pH was much lower than 4.5. Mine was like 3.35 when I was done with the kettle sour and my yeast worked fine, albeit maybe a little slower.

4oz per 5gal is the typical rate I use for dry hopping APAs and I think it was the right amount here. The result is very juicy. Finishing ph was 3.18.

NickersonC said:

4oz of hops seems like a lot but I guess with the reduced hop utilization in a lower pH environment it makes sense. Dry hopped for about a week I guess? As for the poster above, I'm sure the pH was much lower than 4.5. Mine was like 3.35 when I was done with the kettle sour and my yeast worked fine, albeit maybe a little slower.

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You are right. I adjust my wort ph with lactic acid to 4.5 when I pitch my lacto starter. Then I'll monitor the souring levels and boil to kill the lacto when I hit the low 3.20 range then pitch yeast around 3.20. My mistake. That being clarified, the US-05 I started using recently gets right on in there and starts fermentation despite the low ph environment.

I think I am going to give this a try, however I am going to let oyl-605 ride out for a few months, get some super sourness.

Anyone ever do this?

Pyg said:

I think I am going to give this a try, however I am going to let oyl-605 ride out for a few months, get some super sourness.

Anyone ever do this?

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You would have to pitch the lacto and yeast together which is the traditional method. I do the quick sour method so the longest Ive gone before pasteurizing was 4 days.

KeyWestBrewing said:

You would have to pitch the lacto and yeast together which is the traditional method. I do the quick sour method so the longest Ive gone before pasteurizing was 4 days.

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And how sour did it get after 4 days?
Can you liken it to a commercial sour's sourness?

I want to go beyond subtle sour. I need the sour to have a good bite!

Maybe I will have to experiment!

Initially I was going by taste but now I go by ph. My Berliners generally finish around 3.1-3.2 and have more pucker than most commercial examples, especially more traditional examples. If this is what your going for then give the lacto at least 3 days.
IIRC lacto starts to die off around 3.5 so it's hard to push too far below that, and any activity beyond that point goes much slower. The less habitable the environment the less efficient the bacteria or yeast.

I'm proud to say my AG imperial dry hopped version of this recipe got extraordinary approval today. We did a small release for our monthly artisan market and it just so happened the friggin owner of Green Flash was in town and came by for a pint! He said it was an excellent weissbier! He also shared that they've been unable to get Nelson Sauvin at the moment but have contracts set up for a tons of it the following year. For me, this beats the pants off any damn BOS or gold placing. Super stoked to say the least.

So #4 means 4 pounds of DME ?

Rack back to kettle 6 gallons I think I need a bigger kettle

4 lbs DME. The main thing is to adjust the batch size to leave zero headspace while shooting for an ABV around 3.5%. The actual numbers will vary depending on the size of your souring tank but that's the gist of things.

KeyWestBrewing said:

I noticed that 3 days is about how long it takes to get the sourness I like but with each day the headspace in the carboy gets a little bigger. Not a big deal but I get some very subtle funk. So I took some of the cold side aeration tricks floating around and applied them to the souring process. It should work with a lot of people's set up if you have a kettle with a spigot and a way to rest the kettle above a keg.
Fill your keg with sanitizer and use co2 to empty the keg. Connect a QD to the liquid out post on the corny keg and hose clamp the other end of the tubing to the spigot on the kettle. Add a gas QD to the keg with the other end of the tubing sitting in sanitizer. Carefully add your lacto starter to the kettle and open the spigot. That's all there is to it. You end up with a 100% filled keg, completely purged and sealed. No leaks, no growing headspace, nada. So far I've only done this once but it was really easy and the results were extremely clean. It's a definite improvement for quick souring beers. Here's a pic...

Click to expand...

I did this a couple times with success, but was a bit time consuming. Now I just transfer the wort into the keg while it's still steaming hot, close it up, purge it a few times with co2, and let it cool to 100°f naturally. Once it cools to 100°f, then I pop open the lid and add my capsules (Swanson plantarum - 6 caps for 5 gallons), close it up, and purge it multiple times with co2. No issues at all.

I use the heat wrap to keep the keg around 90°f for a few days. Works like a charm. It's the only keg I have that's blue, so easy to keep track of it.

When it's sour enough, I transfer it back to the kettle and boil it like a normal brew day.



Edit: Aaaaaaannnnnddd it's sideways. Dammit!

Interesting I've always wondered if that would cause a DMS issue. Purging the keg how I've been definitely adds a little extra work but my sours come out ridiculously clean so I can't complain.

KeyWestBrewing said:

Interesting I've always wondered if that would cause a DMS issue. Purging the keg how I've been definitely adds a little extra work but my sours come out ridiculously clean so I can't complain.

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DMS? Nah! I boil for at least 30-45 minutes if AG. If it's extract, I just heat it to 180 then transfer it to the keg. No cream corn sours for me! Lol!