just a bit of clarification

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smokinghole

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I do believe I have a good grasp of water minerals and tailoring RO to brewing. My question lies with mash PH. If I use RO with say 5.2 stabilizer that essentially takes care of any mash additions I would need right? Or would I need do have permanent hardness/alkalinity for stouts and such? As far as I could tell the porters/stouts just need the right mash ph which theoretically be held with 5.2.

Then if I want to adjust the water in the boil with a touch of MgS04 and CaCl2 and CaSO4 I'd be okay? Obviously depending on the style of water would determine the amount added.
 
Nothing is certain unless it is measured.

5.2 is useless with my water. I know cause I tested it. I tested it cause I didn't trust it.The only way to know for certain is to test. If it works, awesome. If not, well, it's better than being duped to trust a product that is not delivering for you.
 
GilaMinumBeer is not alone. In fact no one who has made a valid mash pH measurement (valid means done with a properly calibrated meter) and realized a pH close to 5.2 has ever chosen to report that anywhere that I have seen. In addition, analysis of the stuff and laboratory test mash experiments have shown that , in the first case, it shouldn't work based on theory and that it doesn't work in fact. Save your money and a sodium load in your beer.
 
When my chem class or biotech class gets further along I'll see if I can measure the mash with a school provided PH meter. Just for funzies.

The more I read about the chemistry of everything the more I realize I need to get the pH of my water up a tad in order for the 5.2 to even have anything to do. Further reading mentioned that the pH of my water, if made to satisfactory mineral levels, will have little effect on the mash pH due to the buffering effects of the amino acids contained in the grain.

So I guess I'll pick up a few more minerals and go from there.....
 
GilaMinumBeer is not alone. In fact no one who has made a valid mash pH measurement (valid means done with a properly calibrated meter) and realized a pH close to 5.2 has ever chosen to report that anywhere that I have seen. In addition, analysis of the stuff and laboratory test mash experiments have shown that , in the first case, it shouldn't work based on theory and that it doesn't work in fact. Save your money and a sodium load in your beer.

Maybe it's just luck, but I have a properly calibrated pH meter, and it always reads pretty much 5.2 when I use the stabilizer. Can you give references for the articles you read saying that it doesn't/shouldn't work?
 
This is what I'm trying to figure out. There's a lot of he said she said running around with these brewing forums and homebrew masters.

Not that it'll make me an expert but I'm aim to gain a much better understand through the food science degree I'm pursuing. No I don't want to work in a brewery at this point but I'll keep my options open.
 
Maybe it's just luck, but I have a properly calibrated pH meter, and it always reads pretty much 5.2 when I use the stabilizer. Can you give references for the articles you read saying that it doesn't/shouldn't work?

It's not that I have any references to give. It's that yours is the first report I have ever seen of it working properly by someone using a pH meter and so I'm very interested in the conditions under which it did work for you, what your water chemistry is and what your grist composition is. Also, the phrase "I have a properly calibrated pH meter" is attention getting. There may be nothing to it if that means "I have a functioning meter which I calibrate before each use using fresh buffers." but as it wasn't worded that way I have to ask if that is what you meant to say. If it is, I apologize but there are those who think that the little pouches of buffer that come with the $60 meters are used to calibrate them after which they are set.

There are also no references for the statements I made about the theoretical aspects or experiments. Those were done by me. The MSDS for 5.2 says it's a mixture of phosphate buffers. If you put it in DI water it comes to pH 5.7, appreciably different from 5.2. If it's a phosphate buffer at a particular pH it is possible to calculate the ratio of monbasic to dibasic salt. A quick check for potassium shows that there is none (or a trace amount) so both salts must be sodium salts. Given that you know the ratio of monobasic to dibasic and that it is a sodium salt you can figure how much sodium should be in a solution of a given strength. Measurement of the sodium content such a solution gives an answer close to the calculated one. Thus we think we know the composition. I say "think" because there could be other ingredients in there but they are not listed on the MSDS.

So why is it a 5.7 phosphate buffer? Don't really know but my surmise is that they are relying on the reduction in pH which is typically around 0.3 in going from room to kettle temperature in order to be able to claim it's a 5.2 buffer. Of course they never really claim it will get you to 5.2 - that's just the name of the product. Anyway the pH of a phosphate buffer doesn't shift that much with temperature e.g. 7.02 to 6.97 in going from 20 °C to 60°C for a pH 7 buffer used for pH meter cal. The other surmise is that it is a pH 5.7 buffer when mixed with DI water but a pH 5.2 buffer when mixed with the (mostly) monobasic phosphate in malt.

As any freshman chemistry student will tell you buffering capacity falls off very quickly as you move away from pH value close to one of the pK's of the underlying acid. Buffers are not designed for pH values more than 1 pH unit from the closest pK. The closest pK of phosphoric acid is 7.21. pH 5.2 is 2 whole units away from that and 5.7 is 1.2 units away from that. We would not, therefore, expect much buffering capacity from a 5.7 phosphate buffer. Citric acid with its second pK = 4.77 would be a better choice.

So much for theory. In laboratory experiments with Maris Otter malt I found that a nominal water/malt ratio mash, at pH 5.7 with distilled water and 5.93 with my well water (alkalinity about 80) were brought to, respectively, 5.68 and 5.79 with the product at the recommended dose. At quadruple the nominal dose the DI mash pH came to 5.66 and the well water mash to 5.74. IOW, as expected, this buffer can't overcome the combined buffering capacities of the malt let alone the additional capacity of the water. My limited experiments can hardly be considered a full investigation but the implications of the tests I did run are pretty plain. Coupled with the similar observations of others the conclusions are that the stuff isn't quite up to the implied claims. That's why I'm so interested in what you found.

Note: in the mash experiments the ground malt was placed in stainless beakers which were in a water bath at 150 °F. After adding the 5.2 and allowing things to stand for a few minutes samples of the mash were removed to room temperature where the pH was measure with a laboratory pH meter which had been calibrated with fresh buffers just prior to the commencement of the measurements.
 
GilaMinumBeer is not alone. In fact no one who has made a valid mash pH measurement (valid means done with a properly calibrated meter) and realized a pH close to 5.2 has ever chosen to report that anywhere that I have seen.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/adding-minerals-water-using-buffer-5-2-a-135920/#post1536027

In addition, analysis of the stuff and laboratory test mash experiments have shown that , in the first case, it shouldn't work based on theory and that it doesn't work in fact. Save your money and a sodium load in your beer.

Reference?

I've been using this product to make minor mash pH adjustments. It makes enough of a difference to measure with the narrow range test strips that I'm using.

Edit: Let me add that I am by no means claiming that the product works as advertised based on my results. I use the product and my interest is in its efficacy.
 
yogensha directed us to a previous thread in which was posted the following

I've conducted several experiments using Palmer's spreadsheet and a pH meter and I've found I can get reasonably close to a mash pH of 5.2 without using 5.2 buffer. For example, I brewed an Oktoberfest last Monday and I hit 5.4 after mash-in using a Munich water mineral profile. I then added 1/2 tsp (much less than the 1 tbs recommendation) of 5.2 buffer which brought the pH down to, you guessed it - 5.2.

I don't wish to impugn this man as I was not there to see what he did but I must point out that hitting 5.4 in an O'fest using a Munich water profile and especially if it was derived from Palmer's spreadsheet (which advocates the use of inordinate amounts of chalk) is quite unlikely. In fact, hitting a pH of 5.4 in any mash without the use of acid is unlikely which is exactly why brewers use it (in the form of sauermalz or sauergut in the case of German lagers). I'm thus skeptical. I'm always advocating that people go spring the $80 for one of the pocket pH meters but every time I do it I remember what it took me to learn to use one of the things properly. It didn't happen overnight and I keep seeing things, like this, that make me wonder. Sometimes a pH meter will just go off into left field on you and I suspect that many don't understand that you must do a cal (or at least check the cal) before every use (not every measurement but at least once a day). If I put together an O'fest with Munich-like water without the use of sauermalz and saw a mash pH of 5.4 I'd immediately check the meter (is the fill port open, is the junction free, is the connector tight, is the bulb coated with protein, is the response time normal, is the reading stable, how old is the electrode, what were its slope and offset at the calibration?) and, after confirming all those, rerun the cal or at least check both buffers. That's because 10 years experience with measuring the pH of mash has taught me, often the hard way, that such a low pH "does not compute". You can't expect a guy unpacking his new Hanna for the first time to know these things.

Nevertheless, I can now no longer say that I've never seen a report from a guy using a pH meter that 5.2 works!
 
How about this for a test? Why don't we take a rather acidic malt do a 1lb mash. We could use chocolate, black, or acidulated(might be too much). Thathould take the pH below 5.2 I would think running on fact that these acidic malts are used to balance the high alkalinity of the water in Dublin. Then like ajdelange did add some 5.2 buffer to one and add nothing to the other both using distilled water. I think I have an old bag of chocolate malt laying around I might do this tomorrow in a crude way using mason jars, my thermapen, and (as unreliable as they are) easy to access pH strips.

Isn't the point of the 5.2 pH buffer not to lower the pH of the mash but to prevent it from going too low? That's the understanding I got after reading http://***********/component/resource/article/1707-advanced-brewing. So with my rusty chemistry knowledge (been 9 years since I last had class till now) what I just said all makes sense.
 
A buffer is intended, as the name suggests, to resist pH change in either direction (love the French word for them which is "tampon" meaning "stopper"). Buffers are designed for a particular pH and should hold that pH whether acid or base are added. Thus a true 5.2 buffer would hold 5.2 if too much acid malt or roast malt were added or if the water was very alkaline. The problems are that phosphate buffers aren't very good buffers at pH 5.2 and that the malt and/or water can have more alkalinity that the buffering capacity of a reasonable amount of buffer. If I make up a phosphate buffer for pH 5.2 and add it in the recommended concentration (250 mg/L) for the product in question to water with 50 ppm as CaCO3 alkalinity the pH will go to 6.52. If, OTOH, I made the buffer with the salts of citric acid the pH would go to 6.04 - better but still not that good. Buffering works best with dilute solutions where there is more buffer than anything else. Mash really doesn't meet that condition.
 
It's not that I have any references to give. It's that yours is the first report I have ever seen of it working properly by someone using a pH meter and so I'm very interested in the conditions under which it did work for you, what your water chemistry is and what your grist composition is. Also, the phrase "I have a properly calibrated pH meter" is attention getting. There may be nothing to it if that means "I have a functioning meter which I calibrate before each use using fresh buffers." but as it wasn't worded that way I have to ask if that is what you meant to say. If it is, I apologize but there are those who think that the little pouches of buffer that come with the $60 meters are used to calibrate them after which they are set.

Yes, it is calibrated using the standard 2-point calibration technique.

The other surmise is that it is a pH 5.7 buffer when mixed with DI water but a pH 5.2 buffer when mixed with the (mostly) monobasic phosphate in malt.

This was my impression.

That's why I'm so interested in what you found.

Water profile (measured from Ward Labs)
Ca-41 mg/L
Mg-12 mg/L
HCO3-136 mg/L
SO4-9 mg/L
Na-11 mg/L
Cl-13 mg/L

Example where it worked (from my notes)
Grains in mash: 5 lb pale US 2-row (Briess)
Other junk in mash: 1 tbsp 5.2
Mashed in at 1.797 gal @ 166F, which settled at 155F. The measured pH at this point was 5.2.

As I calculate, my residual alkalinity should have been about 75 mg/L as CaCO3, which is obviously too high to have achieved a pH of 5.2 at mash temperature without some help. Now, I also have examples in my notes where I had the same grain bill and water without 5.2, and I measured the pH to be 5.4, which is pretty close to the expected 5.5 or so.
 
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