starter problem

today, after work, I want to brew a kolsch. I planned this for a long time, so yesterday I made a starter.

I didn't have any extract, so I made a mini mash and got 2 liters of 1.040 gravity wort from the same grain I'll be brewing....

now, I smacked a wyeast kolsch 2565 and left it at room temp for 4 hours. It started to swell after some time, but after 4 hours it didn't completely swell (it was about 1/3 of what it should be), but I pitched it at that moment into the starter anyway....

this morning - nothing. it seems like there is nothing going on there. If I come home after work and see no activity I'll kill myself

Everything is ready and my yeast let me down.....

Do you maybe know if this yeast has a longer lag time? Any advice?

thanks

what was the temp of the starter? DId you try some aeration or stir plate or just swirling...how old was the smack pack?

benbradford said:

what was the temp of the starter? DId you try some aeration or stir plate or just swirling...how old was the smack pack?

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smack pack was dated Nov2010, I shook the hell of the wort before pitching.

I suppose that if it started swelling, than the yeast must have been alive.....

You should plan further ahead. Sometimes older yeast take a little longer to get started. And November makes this yeast not exactly fresh.

I generally make my starters on Wednesdays. If I use Wyeast, I smack the pack 24 hours ahead of time, so Tuesday night. Starter on Wednesday night, 2 liters. Let the starter go until it's done (sometimes finished Thursday, sometimes Friday), then put in the fridge to settle out. Brew on Saturday or Sunday and pour off the liquid and pitch only the yeast. The beer's fermenting within 6 hours for me every time.

Anyway, point being, you shouldn't schedule your starters so tightly. You should have cushion time in case it takes longer. If it doesn't take longer and you're done a day or two early, just chill the starter and pour off the liquid when pitching.

Why smack it and let it sit a while? Smack it to break the yeast nutrient pack, then dump it in immediatley, nutrient and all.
I agree, at 4 months, the yeast is pretty old and the viability is probably not that great. You should put your brew day off a week and step up your starter a couple times.

Check out this video. Stepping up a yeast starter

MattHollingsworth said:

You should plan further ahead. Sometimes older yeast take a little longer to get started. And November makes this yeast not exactly fresh.

I generally make my starters on Wednesdays. If I use Wyeast, I smack the pack 24 hours ahead of time, so Tuesday night. Starter on Wednesday night, 2 liters. Let the starter go until it's done (sometimes finished Thursday, sometimes Friday), then put in the fridge to settle out. Brew on Saturday or Sunday and pour off the liquid and pitch only the yeast. The beer's fermenting within 6 hours for me every time.

Anyway, point being, you shouldn't schedule your starters so tightly. You should have cushion time in case it takes longer. If it doesn't take longer and you're done a day or two early, just chill the starter and pour off the liquid when pitching.

Click to expand...

I'll wait and see what happens today after work. If it doesn't start I'll brew a sweet stout with S-04 dry yeast....It's one of my planned brews anyway...

But, since the pack started to swell, I suppose the yeast was alive.

Do you think I could pour all the liquid (2 liters) into the wort if I see that it's in the middle of fermentation instead of waiting that it completely ferments the starter?

I used the same grain in starter that I'll be using in my brew, so I don't see a reason I shouldn't - correct me if I'm wrong....

thanks for the advice

jetmac said:

Why smack it and let it sit a while? Smack it to break the yeast nutrient pack, then dump it in immediatley, nutrient and all.
I agree, at 4 months, the yeast is pretty old. You should put your brew day off a week and step up your starter a couple times.

Click to expand...

hm, because that's what instructions said. first smack and wait until it swell, then pitch into the starter wort....

400d said:

I'll wait and see what happens today after work. If it doesn't start I'll brew a sweet stout with S-04 dry yeast....It's one of my planned brews anyway...

But, since the pack started to swell, I suppose the yeast was alive.

Do you think I could pour all the liquid (2 liters) into the wort if I see that it's in the middle of fermentation instead of waiting that it completely ferments the starter?

I used the same grain in starter that I'll be using in my brew, so I don't see a reason I shouldn't - correct me if I'm wrong....

thanks for the advice

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Yeah, if it started to swell, the yeast was producing CO2. It's alive.

If the starter is fully active, I think you can go ahead and pitch it.

jetmac said:

Why smack it and let it sit a while? Smack it to break the yeast nutrient pack, then dump it in immediatley, nutrient and all.
I agree, at 4 months, the yeast is pretty old and the viability is probably not that great. You should put your brew day off a week and step up your starter a couple times.

Click to expand...

Popping it and immediately pitching into a starter defeats the whole purpose of the packaging. The nutrients in that pack are there to wake up the yeast before you pitch it into a starter. If it's already awake when you pitch it, it reduces lag in the starter and increases the head start the yeast has on the wild yeast or whatever nasties get into the starter from the air.

4 months also isn't THAT old. Shouldn't need to do multiple steps. A simple 2 liter starter should do the job, assuming normal gravity and batch size.

MattHollingsworth said:

Yeah, if it started to swell, the yeast was producing CO2. It's alive.

If the starter is fully active, I think you can go ahead and pitch it.



Popping it and immediately pitching into a starter defeats the whole purpose of the packaging. The nutrients in that pack are there to wake up the yeast before you pitch it into a starter. If it's already awake when you pitch it, it reduces lag in the starter and increases the head start the yeast has on the wild yeast or whatever nasties get into the starter from the air.

4 months also isn't THAT old. Shouldn't need to do multiple steps. A simple 2 liter starter should do the job, assuming normal gravity and batch size.

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You can pitch immediatley into the wort. Inside the smack pack are nutients not maltose sugars.
The nutrients are there to prove viability when not using a starter. The yeast will produce CO2.
The starter will wake the yeast up.

From Wyeast web page "Allow package to incubate and swell for three hours or more at 70-75°F (21-24°C) or immediately direct pitch into wort Full swelling of Activator™ packages is not required for their use. The contents of Activator™ packages may be direct-pitched without prior activation. Our smack pack technology is intended to be a tool for your use in determining viability, and in initiating metabolism for faster starts to fermentation.

Also, "Activator™ packages that are 4 months old or older may require additional time to swell after activation."
"Our Product Warranty states that we guarantee the viability of the yeast in our Activator™ packages for 6 months from the manufacture date assuming that they have been properly shipped, stored and handled"


Also, if left long enough, the co2 will start to kill the yeast.

jetmac said:

Our smack pack technology is intended to be a tool for your use in determining viability, and in initiating metabolism for faster starts to fermentation.

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The bold part is pretty much what I said.

If it's already awake when you pitch it, it reduces lag in the starter and increases the head start the yeast has on the wild yeast or whatever nasties get into the starter from the air.

Click to expand...

And, yes, 4 months old might mean it takes longer to awaken, but it doesn't necessarily mean he needs a multi step starter.

MattHollingsworth said:

The bold part is pretty much what I said.



And, yes, 4 months old might mean it takes longer to awaken, but it doesn't necessarily mean he needs a multi step starter.

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After 4 months viability is probably around 10%

You're right. And he'll make beer. But if he wants to make better beer, or the best beer he possibly can, he needs to pitch an appropriate amont of yeast.

I'm sure you can ferment a batch with 1 yeast cell, but would you want to, is the question.

If you use the calculator from Mr. Malty you will see when making a stater with intermitten shaking from yeast dated Nov 1 ,2010 today you need 3 packs in 2.38L of starter wort to grow the reccommended amount of cells for a 1.040 5 gal batch. Even more with higher gravity.

You can get there using 1 pack but you'll have to step it up

I stand corrected. I've never had a problem using yeast that old with one 2 liter starter though, and fermentation always starts within 6 hours.

Anyway, better to pitch too much than pitch not enough.