220 question

If I am going to brew in the garage and have space in my breaker box for a 30 amp breaker should I just go buy a 30 amp GFCI breaker or should I do something else? I see a lot of post talking about spa panels. Is there a specific reason to use one of those? I was always planning on 110 but now I'm rethinking it.
Please educate me.
Thanks

I think one of the big draws to the spa panel is the price being less than a gfi breaker that fits the main panel. Some brand specific gfi's are big $$$.

Other benefits as well putting a breaker closer to you operation I guess...

Oh and I believe you can also pull 120v circuits off the spa panel for pumps etc if you have enough amps.

As wilserbrewer stated, one reason is cost, although it makes little sense that a spa panel w/ GFCI breaker tends to be less than the breaker alone. You can also build the spa panel as a "pluggable" device, to avoid changes to permanent house wiring (code would not permit the 3 in, 4 out wiring scheme), and it also becomes portable. You can pull 240v and 120v circuits if you have H-H-N-G, whether or not you use a spa panel for GFCI.

jeffmeh said:

As wilserbrewer stated, one reason is cost, although it makes little sense that a spa panel w/ GFCI breaker tends to be less than the breaker alone. You can also build the spa panel as a "pluggable" device, to avoid changes to permanent house wiring (code would not permit the 3 in, 4 out wiring scheme), and it also becomes portable. You can pull 240v and 120v circuits if you have H-H-N-G, whether or not you use a spa panel for GFCI.

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It is crazy. I've been looking at the electrical that everyone has been using to wire up their panels and was so confused why everyone includes a spa panel. Considering you need to come into the panel, out of the panel into another receptacle. And still need a breaker at the panel (albeit not GFCI). Am I right in my thinking that if my electrical panel is in the same room as my brewery, that a spa panel isn't really necessary if I'm going to run my own wire anyways?

You need to have a gfci protection device somewhere in your system. Either at the breaker or in a spa panel. The spa panel is not an overcurrent safety device. It is only a gfci safety device.

Lumpyyyyy said:

It is crazy. I've been looking at the electrical that everyone has been using to wire up their panels and was so confused why everyone includes a spa panel. Considering you need to come into the panel, out of the panel into another receptacle. And still need a breaker at the panel (albeit not GFCI). Am I right in my thinking that if my electrical panel is in the same room as my brewery, that a spa panel isn't really necessary if I'm going to run my own wire anyways?

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Yes, it is crazy. Sometimes the specific gfci breaker to fit your panel is half a zillion dollars and a spa panel is $59, that makes it an easy decision. Ymmv cheers

sandyeggoxj said:

You need to have a gfci protection device somewhere in your system. Either at the breaker or in a spa panel. The spa panel is not an overcurrent safety device. It is only a gfci safety device.

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Does it not have a GFCI breaker installed inside of it? The breaker acting as the GFCI protection and overcurrent simultaneously?

EDIT: You still need a breaker in the main panel for this to work. Figured it out myself.

Lumpyyyyy said:

Does it not have a GFCI breaker installed inside of it? The breaker acting as the GFCI protection and overcurrent simultaneously?

EDIT: You still need a breaker in the main panel for this to work. Figured it out myself.

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It's a little confusing, somethimes people will use the 50 amp spa panel on a 30 amp circuit. The main panel for overcurrent, and the spa panel for GFCI.

wilserbrewer said:

It's a little confusing, somethimes people will use the 50 amp spa panel on a 30 amp circuit. The main panel for overcurrent, and the spa panel for GFCI.

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If you use it on a 30 amp circuit, would you use the wiring for 50amp for future upgrade, or stick to 30amp so as to not confuse anyone in the future?

Lumpyyyyy said:

If you use it on a 30 amp circuit, would you use the wiring for 50amp for future upgrade, or stick to 30amp so as to not confuse anyone in the future?

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I'm no electrical expert by far, but I don't think using oversized wire is a problem. You cant "ASSume" the circuit breaker amperage from the wire size, unless you are foolish.....but perhaps someone more knowledgeable will chime in...

The question is easily answered by comparing the price of a 240v/30a GFCI breaker that fits your main panel to the additive cost of a plain 240v/30a breaker (no GFCI) and a $60 spa panel. The former is generally over $100 while the latter is about $73. Do your homework though as you can find used GFCI breakers on Ebay.

Just out of curiosity how many gallons will a single 2000 watt element boil? Maybe I don't need to go 220

Based on the fact that most people are seeing 3500 as a minimum for 6 gallons, 2000w would work for a 3 gallon boil.

Bobby_M said:

The question is easily answered by comparing the price of a 240v/30a GFCI breaker that fits your main panel to the additive cost of a plain 240v/30a breaker (no GFCI) and a $60 spa panel. The former is generally over $100 while the latter is about $73. Do your homework though as you can find used GFCI breakers on Ebay.

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240V/30a GFCI breaker is $90.

Plain 240v/30a breaker is $11, Spa Panel is $77. Incremental cost in wiring (6 ga to spa panel compared to 10 ga) is ~50 cents per foot x 4. I think the cost adds up pretty quickly. If my calcs are right, for a 20ft run, that is about an $40 difference in wire.

Lumpyyyyy said:

240V/30a GFCI breaker is $90.

Plain 240v/30a breaker is $11, Spa Panel is $77. Incremental cost in wiring (6 ga to spa panel compared to 10 ga) is ~50 cents per foot x 4. I think the cost adds up pretty quickly. If my calcs are right, for a 20ft run, that is about an $40 difference in wire.

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With a 30A breaker in the panel, you don't need to run 6 ga to the spa panel. The wire gauge required is set by the breaker in the main panel, as that limits the current that could possibly flow in the wiring.

Square D QO is the devil! That's the problem

Seriously though, I think the reason some GFCI breakers are so expensive is because the QO standard is SOOOO small. It's difficult to pack that much stuff into such a small breaker. That's why spa panels are often cheaper, the breaker is not limited by size and its the reason I went with Siemens for all my panels.

Siemens QF230 30-Amp 2 Pole 240-Volt Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter $71
Square D by Schneider Electric QO230GFICP QO 30-Amp Two-Pole GFCI Breaker $103


Those are today's prices on Amazon.

Lumpyyyyy said:

240V/30a GFCI breaker is $90.

Plain 240v/30a breaker is $11, Spa Panel is $77. Incremental cost in wiring (6 ga to spa panel compared to 10 ga) is ~50 cents per foot x 4. I think the cost adds up pretty quickly. If my calcs are right, for a 20ft run, that is about an $40 difference in wire.

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Your GFCI breaker price is reasonable so that gets it closer. The Midwest 50a from Homedepot is $69 and the Eaton Model # BR50SPA is $57.

Wire price doesn't matter as you can mount the spa panel directly adjacent to or inline with the run over to the brewing area. If your main panel breaker is 30 amp, the wire for the whole run can be 10 gauge unless you are anticipating a future 50a upgrade which would then save you money in the long run by only buying wire once.

You may also like the idea of having the GFCI closer to the brewing area so you have a means of secondary disconnect in an emergency.