English Barleywine 12.9% ABV, 1.040 gravity - Next step?

I brewed an English Barleywine three weeks ago. Here's the recipe:

All grain, 6 gallons (ended up with 5)
Boil time 4 hours
Yeast: Nottingham Dry rehydrated, three 11 g packets

Fermentables:
22 lbs Maris Otter
4 lbs Cara 60

Hops:
2.5 oz East Kent Goldings 120 min
2.5 oz East Kent Goldings 60 min
1.0 oz East Kent Goldings 5 min

My OG was 1.138, on account of overshooting my expected efficiency, and boiling off too much wort (first barleywine). It has been fermenting at 60 F for the past three weeks. It is currently at 1.040, which is where it has been for the last week.

For a 12.9% ABV green barleywine, it's not actually too bad tasting. It's far too early to tell how it's going to taste once it ages, but I'm happy so far. Even though it's at 1.040, it doesn't taste very sweet... But that may be the alcohol covering it up...

I'm debating my next move. Should I leave it in primary? Move it to secondary? Add some yeast nutrient? Add some Lalvin EC-1118 champagne yeast? Keep it at 60 F? Move it to a warmer place?

What do you guys think?

So normally at this point I would be thinking that I would want to warm it up a tad... Maybe move to 65-67*f and see where that gets you. If after maybe 3 days you see no movement you can resort topping with some wort at kreusen.

You can pitch a packet of dry yeast into some starter wort with some yeast nutrient and then dump it in at high kreusen.

That would give you the best chance to drop that beer down a few points and keep the same yeast throughout. You are almost there really, especially being that high... I wouldn't expect more than a 6 gravity point drop though at that point.

I would raise the temperature over a week and see if it drops at all. You might be getting into too high of an alcohol range for the Nottingham to survive. You could pitch a different yeast, something like San Diego Super or Super High Alcohol yeast to try and ferment it out. I would probably make a lower gravity starter for either of those yeast though before pitching it. You don't have too far to go, you probably want to end in the 1.020-1.030 range? If I were you, I'd raise the temp for a week and rouse the yeast, see what happens. If it doesn't drop then add in a super yeast.

I made an RIS about a year ago and had a similar issue. I researched Champagne yeast thinking this should be my solution. Upon further reading I found out that champagne yeast will kill all the other yeast and if I recall its not a good idea to add this to beer.

Thanks for the replies. I'll warm it up a bit to start. Would you leave it on the yeast cake? Or move it to secondary?

I'm hoping to hit 1.020s for FG.

Leave it on the yeast cake when warming up... Swirl it a bit to get some more dormant yeast that may have been at the bottom of the fermenter into suspension.

Beer that big would probably benefit with some residual sweetness, especially it it's not tasting cloying at 1.040. I too would heat it up, swirl it, and see how it goes. I'd leave it in primary for ~4 wks before racking to secondary for bulk conditioning.

Thanks guys!

I'm in an almost identical situation myself! My barley wine started at 1.105 (I overshot my projected efficiency too...3rd ag batch), and after 2.5 weeks in the primary I'm at 1.032. Mid-60s temps the whole time, Wyeast London Ale yeast which I think is kaput. I checked sg today and a few days ago, and it's the same. I too am aiming for the (low) 20s. I have a starter of Super High Gravity yeast on deck, but wasn't sure how to handle it. I was thinking of 2 options: 1) pitch now, see what happens over the next couple weeks, then decide if I want to move to a secondary, or 2) move to a secondary, then pitch. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with Option 1, since a move to a secondary isn't necessary now and I'd like to avoid it if possible. How long would you guys feel comfortable leaving this in the primary?

Well, it's been two months, I warmed it up to nearly 70 F ambient temp, and the gravity only dropped from 1.040 to 1.038. It's at 13.1% right now.

I was hoping to get it down into the 20s.

At 1.038, this gives apparent attenuation of 72% and actual attenuation of 59%. Is this all the attenuation I can expect? Is the alcohol content too high?

I am curious about the recipe. 4 lbs of crystal in a 5 gallon batch (that turned into a 4 gallon batch) seems like a lot. You are over 15% of a huge malt bill crystal. There is a study out there showing how the addition of base malt overcomes some but not all of the excess unfermentable sugar in crystal but even that study indicated all base malt 80% AA vs 76% for the 15% crystal.

You are at just about 70% apparent attenuation now with 13.6% ABV. Yes Notty should be able to attenuate further than 70% but possibly not at that high ABV.

I would making a WLP099 starter and giving that a shot.

max384 said:

At 1.038, this gives apparent attenuation of 72% and actual attenuation of 59%. Is this all the attenuation I can expect? Is the alcohol content too high?

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The maximum possible attenuation is going to be mostly determined by your grainbill and mash schedule. You have a lot of crystal malt in there, and didn't mention your mash schedule, unless I missed it.

The other factor is the alcohol tolerance of Notty. I've never used it in anything that big before, but it could well be that after sitting in 13% territory for too long it's just mostly dead. You might need something more potent like 099 to get anywhere further, if it is even possible to get it lower (depending, as stated, on mash specifics).

I have had success pitching a starter at High Krausen (12 hours after the thick foam appears). It dropped my RIS to 1.02 from 1.032 with a final ABV of 12%. But if you're already at 12.9%, most yeast strains will struggle even with that. Agree with the 2 previous posters that you should try WLP099, pitching the entire starter at high krausen.

My barleywine was at 1,032 after the Wyeast 1028 petered out. I pitched WLP099 (2 step starter), and after 3 weeks at 70 deg. it was at 1.026. At this point I was thinking "Fu** it" and pitched a pack of CBC-1, hit 1.021 after 9 days, roused the yeast, still at 21 a week later, and bottled it with corn sugar. ABV was 12.2. Tried one 3 weeks later, and it ain't bad. A little bit hot still, but heading in the right direction. (Over the course of a few days I tried a couple more, for quality control purposes of course.) It needs about 5 more months, or, better yet, a year if I can keep my hands off of it. I thought this might be my first dumper, so I'm pretty happy with it.

Anyway, next time if I use WLP099 I'll follow the instructions and feed it gradually. Or try champagne yeast.

Btw: 46.8% 2 row, 46.8% Maris Otter, 1.3% chocolate malt, 5.2% 80L crystal. 90 min. @ 152 deg., OG 1.105, 73% brewhouse.

I think I forgot to mention that this was a 2.5 gallon batch, so I definitely pitched plenty of yeast.

eric19312 said:

I am curious about the recipe. 4 lbs of crystal in a 5 gallon batch (that turned into a 4 gallon batch) seems like a lot. You are over 15% of a huge malt bill crystal. There is a study out there showing how the addition of base malt overcomes some but not all of the excess unfermentable sugar in crystal but even that study indicated all base malt 80% AA vs 76% for the 15% crystal.

You are at just about 70% apparent attenuation now with 13.6% ABV. Yes Notty should be able to attenuate further than 70% but possibly not at that high ABV.

I would making a WLP099 starter and giving that a shot.

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I really like crystal, and had some to use up, so that's how the recipe came to be. I also like simple grain bills when I'm trying a new style. I can then tweak from there on the next one. In hindsight, I probably add too much crystal malt.

And just to be clear, it was a six gallon batch that turned into a five gallon batch.

I need to swing by my lhbs today to refill my CO2 tank, so I'll see if he has WLP099.

GuldTuborg said:

The maximum possible attenuation is going to be mostly determined by your grainbill and mash schedule. You have a lot of crystal malt in there, and didn't mention your mash schedule, unless I missed it.

The other factor is the alcohol tolerance of Notty. I've never used it in anything that big before, but it could well be that after sitting in 13% territory for too long it's just mostly dead. You might need something more potent like 099 to get anywhere further, if it is even possible to get it lower (depending, as stated, on mash specifics).

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I used a 152 F 60 min single infusion mash with 170 F mash out. I had a very thick mash, I want to say about 1.1 qts/lb, on account of mash tun size with that grain bill.

Thanks for all the help guys. I'll definitely be buying some WLP099 and making a starter. For those of you who have used this yeast for stuck fermentations , how vigorous is the fermentation? I moved it to secondary, since it had already been sitting on the old yeast cake for months. I have about a gallon of headspace (added aCO2 blanket from my tank to avoid oxidation). Also, have you guys found it necessary to oxygenate the beer before adding WLP099?

Gallon of headspace should be fine, I don't think it will create much krausen once you pitch it into the carboy. Do not oxygenate the beer (you're going to age some of this batch I'm assuming, it will likely not peak for at least a year). You can gently swirl it to get the WLP099 starter mixed in.

Max be sure to post back here your results.

I've never done the 099 step although considered on an RIS that under attenuated with US05. I bottled that beer and it carbed poorly and was undrinkable. In the end I emptied the bottles back into a small fermenter with some brett and will see what becomes of it.

solbes said:

Gallon of headspace should be fine, I don't think it will create much krausen once you pitch it into the carboy. Do not oxygenate the beer (you're going to age some of this batch I'm assuming, it will likely not peak for at least a year). You can gently swirl it to get the WLP099 starter mixed in.

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I'm not planning on drinking this beer for at least a year. This one will be bottled and put away in the cellar.

eric19312 said:

Max be sure to post back here your results.

I've never done the 099 step although considered on an RIS that under attenuated with US05. I bottled that beer and it carbed poorly and was undrinkable. In the end I emptied the bottles back into a small fermenter with some brett and will see what becomes of it.

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I'll stop back and post results.

I'll be force carbing this beer and then bottling from a keg with a beer gun to avoid any under-carbonation issues due to the high alcohol content.

I made a barley wine at Christmas with almost the exact same OG, but not nearly that amount of crystal. It stopped at 1040 just like yours so I sprinkled In a pack of champagne yeast and it reached 1030. It tasted amazing at bottling but I won't be cracking open any bottles til Christmas.

max384 said:

Thanks for all the help guys. I'll definitely be buying some WLP099 and making a starter. For those of you who have used this yeast for stuck fermentations , how vigorous is the fermentation? I moved it to secondary, since it had already been sitting on the old yeast cake for months. I have about a gallon of headspace (added aCO2 blanket from my tank to avoid oxidation). Also, have you guys found it necessary to oxygenate the beer before adding WLP099?

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Mine wasn't vigorous at all. I could see a random bubble here and there if I stared long enough.
I didn't oxygenate because I was afraid of oxidizing the beer. In retrospect I guess the yeast would be consuming enough oxygen to prevent that. Anyway White Labs recommends it, so maybe next time I'll get an O2 setup and give that a try. There are lots of "maybe next times" for me and this yeast, I haven't quite figured it out yet. I thought it would plow right through the remaining 16 points down to my target FG, but it was more finicky than I anticipated.

I wouldn't use any crystal malt in a barley wine personally but if you must, limit it to 1 pound. Base grain is barely fermentable enough at this gravity.

I can see that. I had .5 lb for a 2.5 gallon batch and my FG was a little higher than I wanted. The beer turned out fine anyway, but I'm glad I didn't use any more crystal than that. It has a nice balance of body and drinkability as it is, and not too sweet.

Yeah, moving forward in the future, I won't be using nearly as much crystal. Live and learn.

I finally purchased the WLP099 yeast yesterday (I'm in no rush!). I have a starter on my stir plate currently for a batch that I'm going to brew today. Once I finish up this brew, I'll get the WLP099 starter going. I don't have an aeration setup, so I'll probably vigorously transfer the beer between two sanitized buckets a few times.

I'll report back how it goes.

I think for my next barleywine I'm going to try a J.W. Lees Harvest Ale clone. One recipe I saw called for 97:3 Maris Otter and 55L crystal, and another one called for all Maris Otter. I recently did a clone of Traquair House Ale that was 99% Maris Otter and 1% roasted barley, and it turned out great. What I learned from that is that you don't always need a bunch of specialty grains to make a complex, flavorful beer.

I've had the WLP099 on the stir plate for nearly 36 hours now... and not much is happening.

I made a 1.5 L starter at 1.040 SG with extra light DME. I let the yeast warm to room temp (about 70 or so) and pitched into 72 F wort.

The yeast's best by date is Oct 3, 2015, so it is VERY fresh yeast. And my LHBS verified that he just got the yeast in a couple of days before I bought it, and he keeps it in a fridge. Normally, as far as I understand it, the yeast is "best by" four months after bottling. So, the bottling date is actually a few days into the future, so to speak.

The room temp in my basement is currently 68 F, and the starter is 70 F, so some activity is happening. However, there is only a small, maybe 2 mm, krausen.

I'm used to high krausen in 24-30 hours or so. Is this normal for WLP099?

Sorry for the late reply. I'm sure you got it figured out by now, I was just going to mention that I don't get a significant amount of krausen with my starters, just a little foam. I use a stir plate though, that might be the reason. How's your beer coming along?

max384 said:

I've had the WLP099 on the stir plate for nearly 36 hours now... and not much is happening.

I made a 1.5 L starter at 1.040 SG with extra light DME. I let the yeast warm to room temp (about 70 or so) and pitched into 72 F wort.

The yeast's best by date is Oct 3, 2015, so it is VERY fresh yeast. And my LHBS verified that he just got the yeast in a couple of days before I bought it, and he keeps it in a fridge. Normally, as far as I understand it, the yeast is "best by" four months after bottling. So, the bottling date is actually a few days into the future, so to speak.

The room temp in my basement is currently 68 F, and the starter is 70 F, so some activity is happening. However, there is only a small, maybe 2 mm, krausen.

I'm used to high krausen in 24-30 hours or so. Is this normal for WLP099?

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So what happened with your barleywine??

urg8rb8 said:

So what happened with your barleywine??

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I've been in the middle of a move, so this took a back seat. I never added the WLP099 yeast to the beer, so I'll take some of the slurry and make a new starter at my new house, and then add it.

My brewing situation is rather sad right now. Other than this barleywine, my pipeline is completely dry, and all of my kegs are kicked. I'll have to start from scratch at my new house.

On the bright side, I've now got a much bigger brewing area... So things aren't all bad!