Howto: Capture Wild Yeast

drummstikk said:

In your brewery, your home, have you ever brewed with a neutral-character yeast like Chico? Most homebreweries are covered in it. That seems like a more likely source of contaminating domesticated yeast. It's pretty easy to know if you're catching it or not. Just set up one or two collecting vessels in parallel to your catching vessel. Do everything to them that you do to your experiment, except don't open the controls for inoculation. If no yeast grows in the controls, then you know the rest of the yeast you caught is actually wild, or at least feral.

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The only yeast I've ever brewed with so far is a Hefeweizen yeast. I also bake bread using baker's yeast. I only do this inside. I boiled the DME wort and cooled it by dumping ice into it, then tipped it onto a boiled jar with the outside fruit.

I have dumped Hefeweizen trub outside, but not close to the fruit tree. It's possible that I'm getting that yeast, but the yeast I've collected seems to flocculate a hundred times better than Hefe yeast. If the sample labelled "lemon starter final crash cool no floc" or "berry starter final crash cool no floc" displays Hefe characteristics and bad floc, then I probably have a feral hefe, but I doubt this will happen. I certainly haven't noticed it so far.

Oh, I also made mulberry wine with VR21 Vintner's Harvest a few months ago. There's a vague possibility that it's that, but there are definitely different levels of flocculation. Even in each sample, there are yeasts firmly packed on the bottom and then layered with a separate loose pool of yeast on top, presumably a different strain.

Pith said:

The only yeast I've ever brewed with so far is a Hefeweizen yeast. I also bake bread using baker's yeast. I only do this inside. I boiled the DME wort and cooled it by dumping ice into it, then tipped it onto a boiled jar with the outside fruit.

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It doesn't sound like you caught the Hefe -- you'd be able to recognize a distinctive yeast like that. Could be the baker's yeast, but if you're cooling with ice cubes, there's no telling what's got in there.

If you are okay with growing whatever was in that ice, then by all means have at it!

drummstikk said:

It doesn't sound like you caught the Hefe -- you'd be able to recognize a distinctive yeast like that. Could be the baker's yeast, but if you're cooling with ice cubes, there's no telling what's got in there.

If you are okay with growing whatever was in that ice, then by all means have at it!

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Frozen water crystals impale yeast, which is why you can't freeze yeast for reuse without using glycerin or another cryoprotective formula. There is only an EXTREMELY small chance that a few cells in this survived and somehow dominated above the metropolis of yeast on the fruits. They'd have to be like Spartan yeast.

Summary: It's almost certainly wild yeast.

Pith said:

Summary: It's almost certainly wild yeast.

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You simply can't know that until you do the controls.

I agree that there is not much living yeast frozen in the ice. Like you pointed out, that's why we include glycerol in frozen stocks. But you're growing up a wort for weeks, so all you need for contamination is a small amount.

Anyway, you wouldn't cool your wort for brewing a beer with ice, would you? I hope not, for good beer's sake. Ice is not sanitized -- it hangs out in a freezer for hours. And even though the first few ice chunks you throw into your hot wort will get sanitized, the last ones necessarily will transfer whatever they're covered with to your cool media. We've got to be even more sanitary as wild yeast wranglers than we would be as brewers.

Even if you had never baked bread or brewed in your house previously, I would still say that you need to prove that your DME wasn't contaminated with yeast from the homebrew shop.

Remember, if yeast are sneaky enough to travel on the wind to find your wort, how much easier will it be for them to find their way from a White Labs vial or Fleischmann's packet into your wort?

If you can make up control vials of wort, bring them to your collecting location, don't open them up -- and if they remain yeast-free for the weeks or longer that you're growing up the experimental vial, then in my opinion, you likely have a bona fide wild or feral yeast.

This is something that I've been meaning to b!4ch about for a while now, and sorry, Pith, to make you my unfortunate target. Hear ye, Wild Yeast Community: show me vials of yeast-free media in parallel to your wild yeast experiment, and I will believe that the yeast is actually wild.

If on the other hand you're cool with a mix of domesticated and wild yeasts, which is what I really want anyway for my funky beers, then carry on.

drummstikk said:

...carry on.

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Will do.

drummstikk said:

You simply can't know that until you do the controls.

I agree that there is not much living yeast frozen in the ice. Like you pointed out, that's why we include glycerol in frozen stocks. But you're growing up a wort for weeks, so all you need for contamination is a small amount.

Anyway, you wouldn't cool your wort for brewing a beer with ice, would you? I hope not, for good beer's sake. Ice is not sanitized -- it hangs out in a freezer for hours. And even though the first few ice chunks you throw into your hot wort will get sanitized, the last ones necessarily will transfer whatever they're covered with to your cool media. We've got to be even more sanitary as wild yeast wranglers than we would be as brewers.

Even if you had never baked bread or brewed in your house previously, I would still say that you need to prove that your DME wasn't contaminated with yeast from the homebrew shop.

Remember, if yeast are sneaky enough to travel on the wind to find your wort, how much easier will it be for them to find their way from a White Labs vial or Fleischmann's packet into your wort?

If you can make up control vials of wort, bring them to your collecting location, don't open them up -- and if they remain yeast-free for the weeks or longer that you're growing up the experimental vial, then in my opinion, you likely have a bona fide wild or feral yeast.

This is something that I've been meaning to b!4ch about for a while now, and sorry, Pith, to make you my unfortunate target. Hear ye, Wild Yeast Community: show me vials of yeast-free media in parallel to your wild yeast experiment, and I will believe that the yeast is actually wild.

If on the other hand you're cool with a mix of domesticated and wild yeasts, which is what I really want anyway for my funky beers, then carry on.

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Let me add one more (positive) control: - one control vial you purposefully inoculate with a yeast you use a lot and you might suspect to pick up. You can compare smell/taste one to one later. Also if you do two, you can ferment at different temps and compare the smell/taste when the yeasts are stressed. Of course you might have a mixture in your spontaneous culture, but you might find striking similarities.

So I know you're not supposed to store yeast for a long time, but I had no choice. I collected a sample off of some grapes, and because I was leaving town, was forced to store them for more than 3 weeks. The day before leaving, I diluted (to reduce alcohol %) and fed my sample. The day I left I stuck them in the fridge.

When I returned, one of my two samples started up. However it lasted only 1 week before petering out and then all activity stopped. Anyone have a clue why? Death seams like an odd mutation to take hold of a population. LOL

I stopped to think about for a while but it really seems like you're making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill drumm. While I agree with you in general theory, in practice you're trapping open yeast of whatever type you we're lucky enough to trap and god knows what additional bacteria. And even if you grab a domesticated (and I say that loosely in a few cases) strain, there is always a good chance of cell mutation. Besides, you could always stick it under a scope and check the cell. I've seen VERY FEW that look anything like a wild one anyway.

Perhaps open air culture of fruit skin culture might be a better descriptor but I'm kind of reminded of the "It's not yeast washing!" group when rinsing for reuse. Pretty sure we all know what they mean.

Btw, my muscadine skin vers. Flopped with barley but it's doing fantastic with muscadines and pears and seems to have piggy backed something in that is breaking down the solids I left in it.might regret it but left it going on them for now.

2 pages into this thread, and already have tons of ideas for the spring. I love HBT.

Accidic said:

I stopped to think about for a while but it really seems like you're making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill drumm. While I agree with you in general theory, in practice you're trapping open yeast of whatever type you we're lucky enough to trap and god knows what additional bacteria. And even if you grab a domesticated (and I say that loosely in a few cases) strain, there is always a good chance of cell mutation. Besides, you could always stick it under a scope and check the cell. I've seen VERY FEW that look anything like a wild one anyway.

Perhaps open air culture of fruit skin culture might be a better descriptor but I'm kind of reminded of the "It's not yeast washing!" group when rinsing for reuse. Pretty sure we all know what they mean.

Btw, my muscadine skin vers. Flopped with barley but it's doing fantastic with muscadines and pears and seems to have piggy backed something in that is breaking down the solids I left in it.might regret it but left it going on them for now.

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I am curious Accidic, I have been looking at yeast cells for quite a while.

You state "Ive seen VERY FEW that look anything like a wild one anyway."

Where I work we have some great equipment to do microscopy, and I sneak a sample in here and there. I have to say, that I find it very difficult to distinguish yeasts based on their cell morphology. This is all phase-contrast microscope imaging, and of course I see the difference in larger cells/smaller cells (this also depends on what state the cells are in) and the budding vs fission, and if they clump together or not. Could you explain a little further what you have in mind for a wild one?

J

I agree with jaapie.

drummstikk said:

Keep in mind that it took brewers generations to produce the boringness of Chico ale yeast. You could have caught a clean-fermenting wild strain. But the chances that a neutral-character domesticated yeast from your brewery slipped in are high. Did you do any controls in which you repeat everything except inoculation to determine how likely contamination is?

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In my case, that's probably not likely as I just moved into a new place, and my "neutral yeast" were harvested before I brewed my first beer here at this place. I guess it's technically possible that the previous owner of this place brewed beer or baked bread. It's also technically possible that it came from my equipment, but it would have had to survive the 60+ days on the boat from the US. There are, however, several bakeries in my neighborhood.

I also used a negative control, where I closed the jar prior to putting it outside and kept it side by side with the fermenting wort until it finished. Nothing grew up in the negative control. But, in this case, that only tells me that the fermenting yeast came from outside the house.

The cells look vastly different to me but your equipment is probably far better than mine. An example that comes to mind is the appendage looking growth (or a hunchback type growth) many if not most I've caught around here have. I've not yet seen that on the packaged yeasts I've used but that is limited to most of the common dry, 2 WL, and 4-5 wyeast that I've dropped under the scope. As I understand it, they were used for flowering or reproduction or some such and have been bred out of the common sc's. Nevertheless, I've only scoped them in this locale.

That said, I only put them under the scope to get an idea if my samples are contaminated. I'm trying to chase down a wild strain (and I say wild only cause it came from the skins of muscadines/'ongs) my grandfather used to produce his wines with. Per his process they should have finished around 22% abv and were highly tolerant to high initial sugar content. I had one bottle to work from (28yo) and I got only one yeast growth and it was terrible whatever it was. So far tho the skin experiment has been unfruitful.... I did pick up some kind of candida (pretty sure anyway) that makes decent bread tho so it's not a total loss.

So about a month ago I set some weak DME solution out on my porch with cheesecloth over night. Brought it in, then about a week and a half later I had visible fermentation. I then decided to try stepping it up in a little bit of late runnings from a batch I made about two weeks ago. I added nutrient shook well etc.... Nothing happened. For two weeks NADA no visible signs of fermentation nothing. I ignored it for a few days intending to toss it. Today when I go to do just that



Yeast rafts stuck to the sides of the growler and a decent cake on the bottom. Obviously I'm thrilled that it finally took off. But has anyone else experienced such a long lag time using wild yeast? We're talking two weeks here. Thought it was odd.

I always got lots of mold doing just the liquid until I ground up some old spent grain along with the late runnings and boiled them together. Not really sure why but that reduced the mold. In the spring/summer time I got quicker results and in the fall I got really slow results. I've not had much luck in the wintertime though. I've since switched to plates instead (and before plates I worked with jars with no problems) and never looked back.

Accidic said:

I always got lots of mold doing just the liquid until I ground up some old spent grain along with the late runnings and boiled them together. Not really sure why but that reduced the mold. In the spring/summer time I got quicker results and in the fall I got really slow results. I've not had much luck in the wintertime though. I've since switched to plates instead (and before plates I worked with jars with no problems) and never looked back.

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Hmm... perhaps the tannins and silicas you extract from boiling grain somehow inhibit moulds. Not really sure.

Also, I've always wondered whether there are are actually indeed wild winter yeasts that like cold temperatures, which might be good for lagering...? Did you try to capture then yeast then move your wort inside where it's warmer?

I've not made a solid effort in the winter tbh. I've done several that I moved from outside on the table to our house attached storage which generally fluctuates between 50-65 degrees in the winter but only one inside (which due to the speed of mold growth is why I was given no choice but to put it out there ). Still tho, I've admittedly not pursued it hard. I get this contaminant that looks kind of starfish like under a scope and oya way more painful in the winter. Not sure what it is but I do know if you don't streak it out it produces a terribly horrible tasting result akin to chewing up a tylenol.

Accidic said:

The cells look vastly different to me but your equipment is probably far better than mine. An example that comes to mind is the appendage looking growth (or a hunchback type growth) many if not most I've caught around here have. I've not yet seen that on the packaged yeasts I've used but that is limited to most of the common dry, 2 WL, and 4-5 wyeast that I've dropped under the scope. As I understand it, they were used for flowering or reproduction or some such and have been bred out of the common sc's. Nevertheless, I've only scoped them in this locale.

That said, I only put them under the scope to get an idea if my samples are contaminated. I'm trying to chase down a wild strain (and I say wild only cause it came from the skins of muscadines/'ongs) my grandfather used to produce his wines with. Per his process they should have finished around 22% abv and were highly tolerant to high initial sugar content. I had one bottle to work from (28yo) and I got only one yeast growth and it was terrible whatever it was. So far tho the skin experiment has been unfruitful.... I did pick up some kind of candida (pretty sure anyway) that makes decent bread tho so it's not a total loss.

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If you have a digital camera you can take pictures by holding the camera in front of the ocular. I used to do that, and it gives suprising good results, if you have a little of a steady hand. Ill dig up some pics, and will post it on my profile or something, so we can compare.

POST IT HERE.

please.

Alright. But it'll probably be a few months before I have a good source to sample from. I've gotten them from muscadines, dewberries, and asian pears. I've not had a lot of luck down here in the wintertime. The only strain I'm working with atm I'm told is a Candida by a college professor friend of mine. It seems to do well for bread (I've got a batch rising as we speak) and the taste is good albeit the bacteria it's sharing the culture with isn't strong enough for my tastes. That said, remind me if I forget please. Also, I've had some luck with the yeasts off of my hickory nuts that seemed promising (Very fat and blobby) at first but the results were very leatherish. I may give it another shot this year just to see if I had other contamination since my streaking was a bit questionable on it.

It wouldn't surprise me to find that yeast from nuts is ill suited for brewing.

Well, the problem is down here in the southeast with the hot and humid temperatures being typical there is quite a bit of mold which can easily overwhelm things if you're not careful. You could probably streak it out a couple times and avoid it but after seeing a guy who's body was infested with mold it makes me a bit on the green side knowing it's there. (The disadvantage of having a nurse as a mother...)

Homebrewtastic said:

So about a month ago I set some weak DME solution out on my porch with cheesecloth over night. Brought it in, then about a week and a half later I had visible fermentation. I then decided to try stepping it up in a little bit of late runnings from a batch I made about two weeks ago. I added nutrient shook well etc.... Nothing happened. For two weeks NADA no visible signs of fermentation nothing. I ignored it for a few days intending to toss it. Today when I go to do just that

<img src="https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46915"/>

Yeast rafts stuck to the sides of the growler and a decent cake on the bottom. Obviously I'm thrilled that it finally took off. But has anyone else experienced such a long lag time using wild yeast? We're talking two weeks here. Thought it was odd.

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Seriously has anybody else experienced this? Or do any of you biology types have a frame of reference for this. We're talking two weeks from pitching to fermentation. Is it just done strange occurrence? Or did I harvest some wild mutant death fungus?

Pith said:

POST IT HERE.

please.

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I posted a bunch of micrographs in my profile for people (Accidic) who are interested. I mainly do this to archive stuff, and to see if there is a contamination. This is not everything, there is more, but I have to dig through some stuff and convert all the images from the slidebook software, so I will fill it up at some point this week.

jaapie said:

I posted a bunch of micrographs in my profile for people (Accidic) who are interested. I mainly do this to archive stuff, and to see if there is a contamination. This is not everything, there is more, but I have to dig through some stuff and convert all the images from the slidebook software, so I will fill it up at some point this week.

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Very cool. They look like eggs. The wild yeast samples look like you can see the "yolk" too! I know exactly how unscientific that sounds.

Pith said:

Very cool. They look like eggs. The wild yeast samples look like you can see the "yolk" too! I know exactly how unscientific that sounds.

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Lol. They do look like eggs, with a little yolk! Those "wild" ones are all Pichia strains, the yolk is the vacuole.

jaapie said:

Lol. They do look like eggs, with a little yolk! Those "wild" ones are all Pichia strains, the yolk is the vacuole.

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Does Pichia give more yeast character than Sacch, insofar as that you can tell it's not a Sacch strain? I just made a cider with the combined wild yeast cultures I had isolated from a lemon (I think you replied to a couple of my posts regarding it). I combined them because they all tasted pretty much the same (ie not very interesting), even after having separated them into separate flocculations. In the finished cider, I can't pick out anything that jumps out as yeast character.

I have no lab equipment, which is a shame. I'm just a "bucket biochemist". The best I can do in the future is do parralel batches using commercial strains and wild strains.

EDIT: Awww yeah, this is the 666th post. :rockin:

@Pith: Odd, showed up as 667th to me. That said, you can put a cheap (BASIC) lab together for really basic stuff for not much more than a batch of beer. But then again, I use mine predominantly to make sure my washed yeast isn't contaminated with one particular little nasty that doesn't become apparent until after 3/4 of the way through ferm.

@Jaapie: The cell to the SE direction of the photo is similar to what I've been getting but 1) the small "cell" stuck to it is much larger and this seems to be consistent across every single cell even when the medium was fermented dry and 2) My microscope is clearly not as good as yours so clarity is far weaker for mine than it is for yours. And in the interest of full disclosure, Biology wasn't even remotely tied to any of my strengths.

Accidic said:

@Pith: Odd, showed up as 667th to me. That said, you can put a cheap (BASIC) lab together for really basic stuff for not much more than a batch of beer. But then again, I use mine predominantly to make sure my washed yeast isn't contaminated with one particular little nasty that doesn't become apparent until after 3/4 of the way through ferm.

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I just edited my post because the thread's post count in my "My Replies" tab showed up as 666. (EDIT: which is now showing up as 668, but upon inspection of the number that I'm sure you're referring to, it's showing up as 669, which would indicate that exactly one post in this thread has been deleted. I'm still claiming the number though. )

My cheap/basic "lab" includes a bunch of jars with the labels removed. I would be satisfied with agar and some plates, so that at least I could isolate single strains. A microscope would be even better, to satisfy my curiosities regarding what the feral little critters look like in comparison to shiny new WB-06s, for example.

Pith said:

Does Pichia give more yeast character than Sacch, insofar as that you can tell it's not a Sacch strain? I just made a cider with the combined wild yeast cultures I had isolated from a lemon (I think you replied to a couple of my posts regarding it). I combined them because they all tasted pretty much the same (ie not very interesting), even after having separated them into separate flocculations. In the finished cider, I can't pick out anything that jumps out as yeast character.

I have no lab equipment, which is a shame. I'm just a "bucket biochemist". The best I can do in the future is do parralel batches using commercial strains and wild strains.

EDIT: Awww yeah, this is the 666th post. :rockin:

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Hi Pith, I sequenced the T1 or T2 region in the ribosomal DNA. I blasted that against available sequenced yeast genomes, and pichia came out on top, as 100% identical. Pichia flavor is not so great, believe me

Accidic said:

@Pith: Odd, showed up as 667th to me. That said, you can put a cheap (BASIC) lab together for really basic stuff for not much more than a batch of beer. But then again, I use mine predominantly to make sure my washed yeast isn't contaminated with one particular little nasty that doesn't become apparent until after 3/4 of the way through ferm.

@Jaapie: The cell to the SE direction of the photo is similar to what I've been getting but 1) the small "cell" stuck to it is much larger and this seems to be consistent across every single cell even when the medium was fermented dry and 2) My microscope is clearly not as good as yours so clarity is far weaker for mine than it is for yours. And in the interest of full disclosure, Biology wasn't even remotely tied to any of my strengths.

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That is yeast budding. You can see the new bud in that image. Some yeast strains stick together in chains, as you can see, your strain is like that, mother and daughter cells are not separating but keep attached. The splitting of cells is termed cytokinesis.

Edit: I realized I just commented on one of my own photos. I did not even recognize it. Lol.

jaapie said:

Hi Pith, I sequenced the T1 or T2 region in the ribosomal DNA. I blasted that against available sequenced yeast genomes, and pichia came out on top, as 100% identical. Pichia flavor is not so great, believe me

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Are you telling me how you figured out that it was a Pichia strain? Cool. Sounds like I wouldn't have the resources to do that, even if I did have a mini lab with agar plates, slant vials and microscopes.

Tell me what kind of flavours you get from the Pichia; I'm all curious now! The only thing I remember reading about Pichia flavour is that it is "not for the faint of heart".
EDIT: Just found this: http://www.cider.org.uk/part5.htm . Does your Pichia strain form a film on top of the brew?
EDIT: Just found this: http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevier...or-ingredient-by-pichia-fermentans-bbSAYyFCKj which seems to suggest that Pichia can ferment phenylalanine (active ingredient of aspartame) into a chemical that smells like roses...

Oh, and
Call me Caleb. Pleased to properly meet you.

Pith said:

Are you telling me how you figured out that it was a Pichia strain? Cool. Sounds like I wouldn't have the resources to do that, even if I did have a mini lab with agar plates, slant vials and microscopes.

Tell me what kind of flavours you get from the Pichia; I'm all curious now! The only thing I remember reading about Pichia flavour is that it is "not for the faint of heart".
EDIT: Just found this: http://www.cider.org.uk/part5.htm . Does your Pichia strain form a film on top of the brew?
EDIT: Just found this: http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevier...or-ingredient-by-pichia-fermentans-bbSAYyFCKj which seems to suggest that Pichia can ferment phenylalanine (active ingredient of aspartame) into a chemical that smells like roses...

Oh, and
Call me Caleb. Pleased to properly meet you.

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True, its hard to identify these strains, there are ways like specific culturing, certain strains like to grow on specific media, leave out sugars etc.
But that would still be very laborious. For me it was easy, and I used what was at hand..but, you can see that No 3-7 (I am missing images for 5 and 6) look similar just by eye.

The smell, well, intense basement/horseblanket/mouse-droppings/sweaty foot. And, all very different, so they were not the same strain, although I cannot prove anything of course. (I tested them in the same wort side by side in 1 gal bottles). Only one is kind of palatable, No 4. Wild yeast 1 and 2 are saccharomyces, I took the images just now, the culture is passed exponential, and the cells are large. As a control I took those 3 strains I isolated from the Gueuze bottle, one of them was Dekkera/Brett. bruxellensis - dont remember which one, but it was much softer than the Pichia strains.

Interestingly, some of the strains "ate" the color - the wort was an amber, but came out of the bottle pilsener yellow for some. I thought that was nice.

I can send you a sample if you want so you can try it for yourself . None of them formed a film on the wort, but I think (going on a limp here) that if you pre-culture these guys in a 200 rpm shaker in erlenmeyer flasks, and inoculate with tons of cells, they do not show this behaviour (they are well aerated already, and they cannot stick together because they are rammed around). I have seen film formation in the wild culture where i isolated these strains from. Thanks for the links! I will read that paper on the rose-smell formation from phenylalanine.

And call me Jasper, nice to meet you as well. I posted some more pics.

jaapie said:

True, its hard to identify these strains, there are ways like specific culturing, certain strains like to grow on specific media, leave out sugars etc. But that would still be very laborious.

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It certainly would, but it also makes me all the more curious about microbiology and/or biochemistry, which I will probably end up studying in some capacity after I've finished my current degree.

jaapie said:

The smell, well, intense basement/horseblanket/mouse-droppings/sweaty foot.

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I laughed out loud at that description. Sounds like one of those "101 things to smell before you die". Perhaps too funky for even funk brewers...? Maybe if you began fermentation with a less funky strain, then crashcooled when gravity was low, racked it off the yeast cake, pasteurised it and pitched the Pichia, or perhaps do it the other way around if Pichia likes simpler sugars, and crash cool part way through vigourous fermentation.

Is that a thing that people do? I have yet to try a funky beer, as we don't get that kind of thing in Australia it seems. The closest thing I've ever been able to find is a Kriek that tasted pretty much like cherry champagne, ie not very close at all. The way I see it, my interest in wild yeast is predominantly curiosity-based and developing something unique, rather than trying to capture Brettanoymces etc. to recreate some of the funky brews I've tried (which I haven't). A lot of the time my mind spends on homebrew matters is thinking about how I can be different.

jaapie said:

Interestingly, some of the strains "ate" the color - the wort was an amber, but came out of the bottle pilsener yellow for some. I thought that was nice.

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Did it lighten the body as well? Eating colour itself is a weird thing for a yeast to do. Perhaps it's like the school principal of the yeast world. Or perhaps the pigment chemical is used as a nutrient and/or converted into one the funky volatile compounds you smelled. Who knows. Biochemistry is fascinating.

jaapie said:

I can send you a sample if you want so you can try it for yourself

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I probably wouldn't appreciate it for what it is, as I haven't had the chance to try anything vaguely funk-based. However, the flavours that I like in daily life are the strong flavours (Lapsang Souchong without milk or sugar is my favourite tea; my mum has to leave the room because the smell sickens her), so who knows what the future holds for my tastebuds.

jaapie said:

None of them formed a film on the wort, but I think (going on a limp here) that if you pre-culture these guys in a 200 rpm shaker in erlenmeyer flasks, and inoculate with tons of cells, they do not show this behaviour (they are well aerated already, and they cannot stick together because they are rammed around).

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If you're interested to try this, I'd be very keen to read about the results.

jaapie said:

I have seen film formation in the wild culture where i isolated these strains from.

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It's PROBABLY best they didn't end up in your final culture. But hey, if it ferments things, someone probably thinks it's tasty!

jaapie said:

Thanks for the links! I will read that paper on the rose-smell formation from phenylalanine.

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Unfortunately only the first page is free, which is the only page I read. If you're willing to 'rent' all 6 pages and have the background vocabulary to make the best use of it, share it with HBT! No pressure, though; only get it if you want it, not because I asked you to.

jaapie said:

And call me Jasper, nice to meet you as well. I posted some more pics.

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Hi Jasper. I will definitely have a look at the pics as soon as I hit 'send'. Do some of the wild Saccharomyces (cereviseae?) you've found have unique and pleasant characters?

I just used your photo since it looked the closest. If I started it in a flask on a plate you could see the cells bud and they bud to that almost 8 shape. The "bud" on mine were also about twice that size if not more.

Pith said:

It certainly would, but it also makes me all the more curious about microbiology and/or biochemistry, which I will probably end up studying in some capacity after I've finished my current degree.

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What are you studying now? Indeed Microbiology and Biochemistry are a lot of fun, that is what I did, and what got me into brewing.

I laughed out loud at that description. Sounds like one of those "101 things to smell before you die". Perhaps too funky for even funk brewers...? Maybe if you began fermentation with a less funky strain, then crashcooled when gravity was low, racked it off the yeast cake, pasteurised it and pitched the Pichia, or perhaps do it the other way around if Pichia likes simpler sugars, and crash cool part way through vigourous fermentation.

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Indeed, there is a lot possible here. I read that article, and another one by those guys (I can send you the PDFs) and they found that increasing amounts of sucrose increased the 2-phenylethanol. Playing around with that will definitely change the flavor profile.

Is that a thing that people do? I have yet to try a funky beer, as we don't get that kind of thing in Australia it seems. The closest thing I've ever been able to find is a Kriek that tasted pretty much like cherry champagne, ie not very close at all. The way I see it, my interest in wild yeast is predominantly curiosity-based and developing something unique, rather than trying to capture Brettanoymces etc. to recreate some of the funky brews I've tried (which I haven't). A lot of the time my mind spends on homebrew matters is thinking about how I can be different.

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It is a pity that you cannot get the funky ones over there. If you can you should try to get your hands on a gueuze, basically the kriek without the cherry juice.

Did it lighten the body as well? Eating colour itself is a weird thing for a yeast to do. Perhaps it's like the school principal of the yeast world. Or perhaps the pigment chemical is used as a nutrient and/or converted into one the funky volatile compounds you smelled. Who knows. Biochemistry is fascinating.

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Yes, the body was really light. For all.

I probably wouldn't appreciate it for what it is, as I haven't had the chance to try anything vaguely funk-based. However, the flavours that I like in daily life are the strong flavours (Lapsang Souchong without milk or sugar is my favourite tea; my mum has to leave the room because the smell sickens her), so who knows what the future holds for my tastebuds.

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Seems that Pichia beer might be your "cup of tea".

Unfortunately only the first page is free, which is the only page I read. If you're willing to 'rent' all 6 pages and have the background vocabulary to make the best use of it, share it with HBT! No pressure, though; only get it if you want it, not because I asked you to.

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Yes, I was able to get my hands on the paper, as well as another paper by them. Basically they tested production of 2-phenylethanol under different conditions: pH, shaking speed (aeration), carbon/energy source and growth temperature. Using high amounts of sucrose cranked up the production of this rose-smelling volatile. The rest of the info is kind of not useful for this thread, I can pass on the PDFs if you'd like. Actually I used a lot of sucrose in my wort for the pichia fermentations, and i did not come across this smell. Probably due to the different strains not being L5.

Hi Jasper. I will definitely have a look at the pics as soon as I hit 'send'. Do some of the wild Saccharomyces (cereviseae?) you've found have unique and pleasant characters?

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Oh yes, I got two. One produces caramel-like flavors, and the other one very fruity tartness. I am experimenting right now at 2 different temps (65 and 72F) and two different worts. Ill post here was comes out, or start a new thread, dont want to hijack this one.

Accidic said:

I just used your photo since it looked the closest. If I started it in a flask on a plate you could see the cells bud and they bud to that almost 8 shape. The "bud" on mine were also about twice that size if not more.

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that depends on what growth fase you are at, the size of the buds. if the yeast starts to kick off in exponential, you'll see a lot of budding, and probably smaller sizes too.

I'm studying Education (Birth-12 years) at the moment. There's a great shortage of teachers here, especially out in the country, and the country life sort of appeals to me since I've grown up close to the city all my life, and I find myself grinning as I look out the window at all the grass and trees and small towns when I travel way out of Sydney and up the coast, so I think it'd be nice.

jaapie said:

Indeed, there is a lot possible here. I read that article, and another one by those guys (I can send you the PDFs) and they found that increasing amounts of sucrose increased the 2-phenylethanol. Playing around with that will definitely change the flavor profile.

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I'd be worried about getting the annoying "cidery" flavour you keep hearing about when adding large amounts of sucrose to anything you're going to ferment, and aging out that cidery flavour might also age out the rose-aroma.

jaapie said:

It is a pity that you cannot get the funky ones over there. If you can you should try to get your hands on a gueuze, basically the kriek without the cherry juice.

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I'll definitely be having a more thorough search of the liquor megamart shelves next time.

jaapie said:

Seems that Pichia beer might be your "cup of tea".

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Haha, I've searched the entire internet for Pichia beer and I assume that since it doesn't appear to exist in any form other than what you've described, it hasn't caught on at all. The aromas you describe do seem outwardly offensive, beyond just "funky".

jaapie said:

Yes, I was able to get my hands on the paper, as well as another paper by them. Basically they tested production of 2-phenylethanol under different conditions: pH, shaking speed (aeration), carbon/energy source and growth temperature. Using high amounts of sucrose cranked up the production of this rose-smelling volatile. The rest of the info is kind of not useful for this thread, I can pass on the PDFs if you'd like. Actually I used a lot of sucrose in my wort for the pichia fermentations, and i did not come across this smell. Probably due to the different strains not being L5.

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In your DNA testing of the Pichia fermentans, did you get a different number/letter designation, or was the equipment not that specific? EDIT: Eep! Just noticed you have a PhD in microbiology. I'm sure your access to equipment is perfectly fine.

jaapie said:

Oh yes, I got two. One produces caramel-like flavors, and the other one very fruity tartness. I am experimenting right now at 2 different temps (65 and 72F) and two different worts. Ill post here was comes out, or start a new thread, dont want to hijack this one.

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Cool! I would definitely be interested in checking that out when you do. How's the attenuation levels of the wild Sacch? To me personally it would be a shame if there were no sugars at all to accompany the caramel or the tart fruit. Alternatively, you could just mash high to avoid that problem.

But it bud'd out the same general cell shapes.

Pith said:

I'm studying Education (Birth-12 years) at the moment.

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Respect.

I'd be worried about getting the annoying "cidery" flavour you keep hearing about when adding large amounts of sucrose to anything you're going to ferment, and aging out that cidery flavour might also age out the rose-aroma.

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Actually, I fermented on 15% sucrose with this batch, and the cidery flavor was not really a big issue. It was really high though, I do not know why I went there. I have had homebrew from friends with a large sugar volume, some belgian style beers, and some of them it became really intense and in the way of the beer. These Pich strains did not produce the rose smell though.

Haha, I've searched the entire internet for Pichia beer and I assume that since it doesn't appear to exist in any form other than what you've described, it hasn't caught on at all. The aromas you describe do seem outwardly offensive, beyond just "funky".

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Yeah, you could call it offensive actually. I bring a bottle out here and there during tastings to see peoples faces turn green. Although some people like it - and it gets better with aging (these beers are not drinkable fresh basically). Maybe Limburger cheese is a good comparison - not for everybody, lol.

In your DNA testing of the Pichia fermentans, did you get a different number/letter designation, or was the equipment not that specific? EDIT: Eep! Just noticed you have a PhD in microbiology. I'm sure your access to equipment is perfectly fine.

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Still a valid question. I sequenced only very small parts of a specific part of the genome. It only gives me general strain designation, its an approximation. You can distinguish the big families, although sometimes there are ambiguities, or only distant homologues. I went with Pich since they were 100% the same.

Cool! I would definitely be interested in checking that out when you do. How's the attenuation levels of the wild Sacch? To me personally it would be a shame if there were no sugars at all to accompany the caramel or the tart fruit. Alternatively, you could just mash high to avoid that problem.

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Definitely less than the Pichia beers. Although, one strain just keeps on chewing through, you know the bottles become all gushers after a month or two. Ill make sure Ill let you know how this other stuff turns out.