Yet another "pitching on the cake" thread

After searching around for a while I can't find the answer so please post the link if the thread exists.

I have an IPA (#1) in the primary carboy right now and it's pretty much done. I'm going to brew another IPA (#2) in a few days that I was going to pitch on the cake once the first is kegged. Then my housemate and I decided to dry hop IPA #1 so we dumped two ounces of hop cones directly into the primary. Halfway through I remembered the whole cake pitching plan, but the hops were already going in so will it mess things up for the next batch to have two ounces of hop cones in the primary? Should I siphon out some or most of the yeast/trub to a new carboy? I have some of this yeast already washed and in the fridge, but wanted to do the cake pitching if possible.

I'd personally just go and dump my new wort on cake, hops, the lot as the previous batch will already have taken most of the good stuff from the hops.

Although wait until someone more experienced than me chips in. In future maybe wait to dry hop in the keg or a secondary

Pitching directly on the cake is an overpitch of such massive amounts that there really is no words for it. I have done it twice and the resulting beers turned out really terrible. Go ahead and repitch, but for the love of god measure out the correct amount of slurry and pitch that.

I usually just used a big stainless kitchen spoon and scoop out a heap or 2 of slurry to add with my existing yeast if i am attempting to reuse yeast from a previous batch. Also just tossing the IPA onto your previous dry hopped Ipa batch hops and all may give the second batch some grassy over dry hopped taste from all the hops that you dont want in your beer.

Be a big spender and splurge the $1.75 for a packet of Nottingham yeast.

I've pitched on a yeast cake before and never had any issues like tonedef spoke of, I suspect there was something else going on there. The issue is the hops that are sitting in the vessel, prolonged dry hopping can lead to the grassy flavor already mentioned.

carl spakler said:

I've pitched on a yeast cake before and never had any issues like tonedef spoke of, I suspect there was something else going on there.

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I am not sure what kind of results you are expecting when pitching onto a yeast cake, but it does not create great beer. It might be drinkable but it is just as easy to measure it out and pitch the proper amount, while also removing it from the dry hops. Your biggest risk of pitching too much or right on the yeast cake is overtaxing the supplies of dissolved oxygen, simple sugars and nutrients available to the yeast. This can result in a lot of off flavors and autolysis. I am not sure who came up with the idea of pitching right on the yeast cake but I can only assume it was inspired by laziness. It's not worth chancing an entire batch of beer when it takes two minuets to measure out the proper amount and it will always result in a better beer. Dave Logsdon of Wyeast was quoted saying:

“I try to stay within 20% of my ideal pitch rate and I prefer to slightly under pitch rather than over pitch. This causes more cell growth, more esters, and better yeast health. Over pitching causes other problems with beer flavor, such as a lack of esters. Changes in the flavor profile are noticeable when the pitch rates are as little as 20% over the recommended amount.”

When pitching on the yeast cake you are pitching over 200% the recommended amount.

Tonedef131 said:

I am not sure what kind of results you are expecting when pitching onto a yeast cake, but it does not create great beer. ...I am not sure who came up with the idea of pitching right on the yeast cake but I can only assume it was inspired by laziness. It's not worth chancing an entire batch of beer when it takes two minuets to measure out the proper amount and it will always result in a better beer.

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I haven't tried pitching on a cake yet, but based on many HBTers experiences I thought I'd give it a try. Doing a search shows lots of people who have done this and they said they came out with a great batch. There are also a few people who say it's overpitching, but it seemed like there were more people who had success so I thought I'd see for myself.

Since I have some washed yeast already I think I'm just going to make a starter because I don't want to deal with the hops.

In future maybe wait to dry hop in the keg or a secondary

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Yeah, I forgot that I was using the cake later until halfway through the dry hopping.

neko said:

I haven't tried pitching on a cake yet, but based on many HBTers experiences I thought I'd give it a try. Doing a search shows lots of people who have done this and they said they came out with a great batch. There are also a few people who say it's overpitching, but it seemed like there were more people who had success so I thought I'd see for myself.

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Go for it, this is homebrewing and it's all about experimentation. I am just trying to make people aware of the risks so that if there is off flavors they might know where to look for the cause.

I pitched onto a US-05 yeast cake on Sunday with 85* wort. It wasn't the smartest idea but I had to go and I needed to get the wort out of the kettle. Well I came home 7 hours later to the blow off tube going insane. I am glad I put in some fermcap drops but still it was insane and the temp was still at 80* even in a water bath that I dumped a crap load of ice in before I left.

Well I eventually got it down to the 60s after about 8 hours from pitching so I hope those first 8 hours of crazy fermentation at like 80* didn't hurt the beer. The beer is pretty much done fermenting after 3 days now. I haven't taken a hydro reading but there is not much activity to speak of.

Any esters created in those first 8 hours might well be consumed if you leave it for two weeks.

Here's my thought on pitching onto a yeast cake: I had a brew going in my conical, using S-04, that dropped from 1.053 to 1.020 in 5 days, and then stalled - 6 days at 1.019. It was somewhat close to my expected TG of 1.014, but I racked it into a carboy to see if it would come around. One of the brains at the LHBS gave me the suggestion to rack it to perhaps rouse the yeast, while another said that I might have had too low of an ambient temperature (it was 64-66 the whole time, so I don't think it was too cool).

Now this was in a conical; I had dropped the trub a few times during the ferment, on days 4 & 7. I didn't drop the trub after I racked it to the carboy last Sunday on day 14, leaving the last bit in the bottom of the conical with some of the beer on top to protect it.

Tonight, I'm planning to pitch a fairly light beer (The Bride's Brew) onto the cake. The OG will be around 1.043; and I want to see if the S-04 gets a higher attenuation with the lower OG and higher pitch rate.

Am I just pissing up wind here?

I pitched a 1.119 barleywine onto a yeast cake and was able to attenuate down to 1.020 and it is a wonderful wonderful brew (one of my top 3). I unfortunately only have 10 bottles left and it is not a year old yet grr.

I plan on pitching my next big beer on a yeast cake as well. 1.161 is gonna need a few yeast to get it fermented.

If you are brewing a beer that really relies on the yeast character then you need to calculate how much you pitch, if you are using a clean yeast and oxygenating it well you'll be fine pitching on a cake IMO.

Tonedef131 said:

I am not sure what kind of results you are expecting when pitching onto a yeast cake, but it does not create great beer.

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If you say so, but the batch of Rye Pale Ale I made on a yeast cake turned out to be one of the best batches I ever made.

Just as you said you had lousy results, I have had excellent results by pitching on a full yeast cake.

I've pitched on top of a yeast cake. I did it three times with the same yeast till the yeast was a quarter thick in the carboy. I then decided to dump some of the yeast out into my ice cream maker. I made a lovely Pale Creme Ice Cream out of it. Had a few unpleasant side effects but I dropped 5 pants sizes from it.:rockin:

ChillyP said:

I've pitched on top of a yeast cake. I did it three times with the same yeast till the yeast was a quarter thick in the carboy. I then decided to dump some of the yeast out into my ice cream maker. I made a lovely Pale Creme Ice Cream out of it. Had a few unpleasant side effects but I dropped 5 pants sizes from it.:rockin:

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You win! :rockin:

I've pitched onto yeast cakes with great success. Just go higher gravity to account for the large number of cells present, and a darker color brew as the cake will carry your SRMs up. As for the hops in it, I don't recommend that, however it's too late to change that, so I'd wash the yeast, then reuse it. Either way, good luck and have a good session.