windbreaker123
Well-Known Member
would you like to taste my ibus on a partial boil ?
Do full boils make that much of a difference over partial boils?
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I wasn't bickering, I was pointing out the facts. And it
helps the op because one poster said you can't make
90 IBU beers unless you do a full boil, and that's not
true. I doubt very much that partial boils cause more
darkening, but even if it does, all you have to do is not
boil the extract for too long. The only reason to do a full boil
is because you are doing all grain (excluding biab), it's not
because full boils somehow give you better beer.
Ray
But, your "facts" are incorrect as well as out of place in the "beginner's brewing forum".
If you can only isomerize 100 IBUs in a liquid (as the liquid is "saturated" with the oils at that point), and the liquid is 2.5 gallons, and you add 2.5 gallons of water, the limit of IBUs in a partial boil of 2.5 gallons is 50 IBUs.
Still, that's off-topic for this thread and another thread should be started with the new topic.
And I would argue that full boils DO and WILL make better beer over a partial boil, all other factors being equal. Less maillard reactions, less "thickening" and darkening of the wort, and closer to the hops utilization of the corresponding AG batch.
No, you are incorrect, and I don't see how facts can be out of place
anywhere. Are newbies going to implode if I bring up "milligrams" or
"isomerization"?
The solubility of unisomerized alpha acids is ~80mg/L (~80 IBU), but it's
the isomerized alpha acids that end up in beer, and their solubility is
astronomical compared with the unisomerized acids (put it this way:
the molecular structure is similar to ascorbic acid, and ascorbic acid
has a solubility of 330 GRAMS (not milligrams) per liter. The pKa of
ascorbic acid is about 4, similar to acetic acid, but isomerized hop alpha
acids have a pKa of 3, ten times more acidic so even more soluble). The
only limit to IBU's is how much hops you can throw in the beer. The TASTE
limit may be at about ~100 IBU, but the solubility is far far higher.
Ray
Ray, you are bickering. Definition here:
Noun 1. bickering - a quarrel about petty points.
1
: to engage in a petulant or petty quarrel
Now, by definition, you have bickered along with most of the other responses in this thread. Quite frankly, i haven't seen the OP respond back with a "thanks" or anything of the sort and it's because some one got set off with the famous IBU ceiling argument and we began a swift downward spiral.
Yooper's right, the OP doesn't really need to be concerned with the IBU ceiling at this point unless he/she speaks up and says that's the major concern with their original question (it's not, in case you're wondering). At this point i'm glad i'm not a moderator because i would have shut this thread down in a hurry, as petty arguments are SO no helpful to anyone. All you do is come off sounding like an a$$hole, but yet somehow, still lack any significan't contribution to the conversation.
Can we please get back on topic here? We can have the IBU ceiling discussion in the Brew Science forum if you still feel like you need to get something off your chest Ray.
jkarp
Well-Known Member
Not true and there's hard data to prove it. Basic Brewing did partial / full boil experiments and sent the finished beer out for lab testing. They saw no difference in IBUs between their partial and full boil beers.
That said, IBUs are damn complicated and there are many factors involved, most of which home brewers blindly ignore and take their brewing software IBU calculation as gospel.
jkarp
Well-Known Member
Sorry Zixxer10R and yooper but you're both way off target here.
When the OP asks if there's any difference between full and partial boils, and by the 3rd and 4th reply things are running off track from known IBU science, rayg's response was perfectly on topic and reasonable.
There's no point in leading OldBrewPhotography into thinking he can't make an IPA with a partial boil. We all know better than that.
When the OP asks if there's any difference between full and partial boils, and by the 3rd and 4th reply things are running off track from known IBU science, rayg's response was perfectly on topic and reasonable.
There's no point in leading OldBrewPhotography into thinking he can't make an IPA with a partial boil. We all know better than that.
Wow, just read through this whole thread and I can't see anywhere that Ray comes off as an "a$$hole". Look at the situation here, YOU are the one insulting him! He has responded extremely intelligently and so far it seems that people that just aren't up to understanding his points are getting angry.
Man, some people get waaay too worked up in some threads.
Rev.
cadarnell
Well-Known Member
I do about an 85% boil I guess .. I usually start the boil with the amount of finished beer I want to make, and then top off with bottled water post boil .. I'm actually not sure I'll ever change, as the beers I have made this way taste just as good as the few I haven't topped off.
Doing it this way lets me get it boiling faster, and chilled faster. Also, I can do a pre boil gravity check and then make some boil length and hop addition adjustment to help hit my numbers, if needed. Good Luck.
Doing it this way lets me get it boiling faster, and chilled faster. Also, I can do a pre boil gravity check and then make some boil length and hop addition adjustment to help hit my numbers, if needed. Good Luck.
I've found the hop utilization debate very interesting and educational. Maybe a cross-reference thread could be put in another forum so folks interested in the subject would know to look in this thread.
If you have a limit of 80 mg/L of UN-isomerized
hop oil, this has no effect on the final amount of ISOMERIZED
hop oils. That is because as each molecule of un-isomerized
oil is isomerized, it makes room for another molecule of
un-isomerized oil. The practical limits on IBU's are
a) how much hops you can pack into a boil volume.
Obviously you can't put 100 pounds of hops into
a 5 gal boil (or 2.5 gal). What you could do though
is remove the hops after say 30 min, and replace
them with fresh hops, rinsing the old hops and putting
the rinse back in the kettle to keep the volume up.
b) the rate at which the ISOMERIZED hop oils degrade.
If you boil long enough without adding more hops,
eventually you will convert the oils to something
else entirely. As long as you keep introducing
new hops into the wort, the rate of production
will exceed the rate of degradation, but there
is a *practical* limit to how much hops you
could put in the beer, it's not a question of
boil volume.
Yes, there is a real limit to how much isomerized hop
oil you can put into a batch, but that limit will be
more like 300,000 IBU's for a 5 gallon batch versus
150,000 IBU's for a 2.5 gallon batch, but the only
way to do that would be to add isomerized hop oils
from a bottle of hop oil.
Ray
Thanks and thanks to jkarp also for coming to my
defense. There seems to be an awful lot of resentment
around here whenever someone tries to prick the balloon
of some suburban brewing myth. It's funny that when
someone in the beginner's forum asks a simple question,
it's ok to respond with some nonsense, but an accurate
scientific answer is not allowed! Just how is the beginner
supposed to learn? Oh, I get it, he's supposed to
follow the myths and then find out the hard way that
they aren't true, but wouldn't that negate the purpose of the
beginner's forum? Or have I misinterpreted the beginner's
forum and is it actually the place where only beginner's
argue or offer their misinformation to each other?
The claims about me "bickering" are just too funny!
I've tried to offer factual information and others
start name calling or mischaracterizing what I say,
making it personal, and I'M the one that is claimed
to be bickering!
The op asked "Do full boils make that much of a difference
over partial boils?", the short answer to a beginner
should have been "No". But of course some posters
begin adding their 2 cents and I felt I was helping
out by correcting some of the myths. Nobody complains
about the misinformers though.
The Journal of the Institute of Brewing is making
all its papers available for free temporarily, you
can read about utilization to your heart's content.
http://www.scientificsocieties.org/jib/
Ray
jkarp
Well-Known Member
I definitely expected better from Yooper but perhaps she was having an off day. It happens.
Anyway, good stuff rayg.
Anyway, good stuff rayg.
An "off-day?" Seriously? Because I still believe the science behind hops oils isomerization? And standing by that belief that has been published by noted brewing scientists?
I did NOT resort to namecalling, insults, etc. I can still stand by beliefs based on the scientific papers I've read, scientists I've spoken to, and my own experiences without resorting to accusing others of having an "off day".
You hop heads are ruining this thread. I read this thread to get info on partial vs. full boil. I had to endure 5 pages of blah blah about how much hop oils you can stuff into your brew.
My question is --> I sometimes do keggle brewing in the winter outside in Michigan. I was thinking maybe I was being stupid only making 10 gallons of extract beer when I could add another 5 gallons of cold water at the end. This would allow me to produce 15 gallons of beer. My major reason for reading this thread was to determine if adding water at the end of a extract brew makes worse beer. I don't care about sterlization techniques or how much hop oils to make some quacked out high hop Mr. Clean lemony fresh brew. I swear there are homebrewers who would rate a can of extract with 750ml of vodka poured into it one of the best beers they ever drank. Why do so many people think ultra high hops...or extra thick stouts...are what define a good beer. How about well balanced brews that define classic styles that have been served up for century's.
My question is --> I sometimes do keggle brewing in the winter outside in Michigan. I was thinking maybe I was being stupid only making 10 gallons of extract beer when I could add another 5 gallons of cold water at the end. This would allow me to produce 15 gallons of beer. My major reason for reading this thread was to determine if adding water at the end of a extract brew makes worse beer. I don't care about sterlization techniques or how much hop oils to make some quacked out high hop Mr. Clean lemony fresh brew. I swear there are homebrewers who would rate a can of extract with 750ml of vodka poured into it one of the best beers they ever drank. Why do so many people think ultra high hops...or extra thick stouts...are what define a good beer. How about well balanced brews that define classic styles that have been served up for century's.
I have just ordered the NB Deluxe Starter kit. I bought a 5.5 gallon brew pot as well. The recipe ask for 2.5 gallons to be boiled for the wort. If I boil 3.5 or even 4 gallons, will it improve the taste on the beer. I am starting with the NB American Wheat (extract).
