Couple Questions from a Noob...

I did a couple searches and could not find specific answers, so thought I would ask...

Can someone explain the purpose, and method, of a secondary ferment? I am using a bucket fermenter with the 'tap' at the bottom to allow me to use a hose to move the fermented beer to a bottling bucket.

I am wondering why I should use a secondary fermenter, and if it is any different that the primary...


Also, I am seeing mention of 'yeast cake' - can I pour another batch of wort on top of the yeast that is left in the bottom of my fermenter without worry of contamination?


Anyone know where I can find a Grant's Perfect Porter clone? Or similar?


Lastly (for now), I have a stout kit coming and am wanting to make an espresso stout, with a hint of chocolate. Can I pour espresso into the bottling bucket, with corn sugar? With a bit of cocoa powder?

Thanks for the information.

Welcome...both of these questions have been asked and answered in the past week, but I'll take the first 2 for you...

There really is no secondary fermentation taking place. It's actually a second container, mostly a carboy, where you rack your brew off of the yeast cake and allow your beer to age, mellow, condition, and clear.

As for pitching on the yeast cake, it's very simple. The only problem you encounter is that your wort has to be cooled before hand. You don't want to shock the yeast with cold or hot wort. There is no danger of contamination.

I also recommend searching for yeast washing.

I'm not into the other brews so I really can't answer your question with any level of confidence.

So just pour the beer, off the yeast, into a second fermenter prior to bottling? Just to let it sit for a couple of weeks?

Is that 'racking'?

How cool must the wort be to pour on top of the yeast cake? Just siphon/drain out the first batch, and poor the wort right on top of it....sanitize the lid? Or any precautions to take?

Sorry, I did not find the answers I was looking for with my search, obviously don't know the terminology. Thanks for the help...

I'll take the last; you can add some espresso at bottling, but be careful of using real chocolate. Many types are loaded with oils, which will kill your head retention. There's one type (dutch processed, maybe?) that's free of oils and supposedly good to use.

As for the first question - it is unfortunate that we (as homebrewers) ever started calling it a secondary fermentation. Most of us don't even rack out of the primary fermentation vessel until fermentation is complete. This means that any secondary is simply a clearing tank - a place for the beer to bulk age for a while as the particles settle out. It is entirely unnecessary to do this in a separate vessel. Some around here will disagree, citing that the yeast will go through autolysis (cannibalizing themselves if the beer is left too long on that cake). Frankly, this would take a seriously long time. When I heard John Palmer say in an interview that he doesn't always use a secondary fermenter, I stopped feeling guilty when I didn't.

You still need to leave the beer in your primary for a while (2 weeks or more) after fermentation is complete. This will give the beer time to bulk age and clear up. When I am not brewing successive batches, I never use a secondary. I only move to a clearing tank (glass carboy) if I want to pitch onto the yeast cake in my primary.

Which brings me to your next question. You can pitch onto that cake. Be very clean and sanitary. Get as much old beer out of the primary as you can. Then, simply rack onto that yeast cake. A few things to think about - watch the fermentation carefully. It will be very vigorous and you could have a blow off if your airlock gets clogged - its a mess. Your beer will probably ferment in about 2 days or even less. One other thing - some folks on this board will tell you that overpitching leads to off flavors because the vigorous fermentation will raise the temperature over the yeast's recommended temps. While I have not experienced this and I am highly skeptical, it does sound like good logic. Personally, I don't think that it is possible to overpitch (within reason, of course).

As for your last question. I am fairly sure that people have done exactly what you are thinking about. One thing you should do is be sure that all you add at that point in the process is clean and sanitary. You may want to add those flavors during the initial wort boil instead. Find a recipe, and see how other brewers get those flavors into their beer.

Cheers

When you pitch onto a yeast cake do you just rack the wort on top or do you stir up the old yeast?

Dump it, man. Let it all get mixed in with oxygen.

There is no need to stir it.

Pat_in_WV said:

So just pour the beer, off the yeast, into a second fermenter prior to bottling? Just to let it sit for a couple of weeks?

Is that 'racking'?

Click to expand...

No, No. You never pour the beer after fermentation starts! You can boil it, then cool it, then pour it into the primary (first) fermentor. After you pitch the yeast and fermentation begins, take every precaution to not stir, aerate, splash, etc your beer.

Racking is using a tube to siphon the beer off the yeast cake. You siphon (rack) into the secondary fermenter, with long enough tubing to not splash. Put the tip in the bottom of the second container, so as it siphons, the tip is under the surface. Then, you have no splashing at all. You can use a racking cane in the primary (it's a rigid plastic tube) above the trub so you don't siphon all the gunk into the secondary. The same procedure is used to transfer to a bottling bucket as well. The purpose of racking is to get the beer off the sediment layer without oxygenating it and disturbing the sediment.

Lorena

Just to be clear for you.
Rack your current beer off the primary into the secondary per Lorenae (keep things realtively undisturbed), but pour new wort on to old yeast cake (allowing to to oxegenate).

Clear as mud?

Got it! Thanks...I plan on doing just that.

Thanks for being patient with the dumb questions.

I have a pale ale in the fermenter now, plan on siphoning it into a second fermenter (not sure how long to leave it before bottling) and putting a stout on the yeast cake.

Am thinking that I can get a three step process going: bottle one, move one to second fermenter, and put another batch in the primary.....use one batch of sanitizer.

There are some considerations when re-using a yeast cake:

1) make sure the next batch is the same or darker beer variety, wouldn't be good to pour a pale ale onto a yeast cake that a porter just came off of and

2) don't reuse the yeast cake too many times as the yeast strain will begin to mutate with successive ferments (I think the general rule of thumb is 2 batches to a cake, but I could be wrong there)

In terms of the secondary, if you use it, the general rule of thumb is 1 week primary, 2 weeks secondary, 3 weeks bottle conditioning.

TheJadedDog said:

There are some considerations when re-using a yeast cake:

1) make sure the next batch is the same or darker beer variety, wouldn't be good to pour a pale ale onto a yeast cake that a porter just came off of and

2) don't reuse the yeast cake too many times as the yeast strain will begin to mutate with successive ferments (I think the general rule of thumb is 2 batches to a cake, but I could be wrong there)

In terms of the secondary, if you use it, the general rule of thumb is 1 week primary, 2 weeks secondary, 3 weeks bottle conditioning.

Click to expand...

IMO, you can rack enough beer off of a yeast cake that the little liquid that remains will not affect color to a great extent. Yeast cakes from certain yeasts pack a bit better than those from other strains, however. When I pull a beer off of a yeast cake of Nottingham, for instance, I can get virtually every drop of beer off the yeast w/out disturbing the cake. {best.yeast.evar.]

As for the second point. It is true that mutation occurs. I wonder how many batches it would take, however, for that mutation to make a noticeable difference? I have talked with professional brewers (award winning ones at that) who kind of flippantly say that anything after the eighth generation is bad. Well, to me this implies that the first eight generations were pretty good. I suspect that we (especially on a homebrewing scale) could repitch a lot more times than we often think we can. That being said, yeast is relatively cheap enough (on a homebrewing scale) that the cost/benefit analysis really points in the direction of starting with fresh yeast after the second or third generation.

Speaking of yeast generations, I recently read somewhere that the US-56/Wyeast 1056/Cali Ale strain is a mutated strain of the Nottingham strain.
This is fascinating to me, for some reason. To me it is a similar yeast. This explains why. I may start another thread about this if anyone is interested in discussing further things like yeast strains and their family histories.

I guess that that is a industrial secret.