Water Additions - Papazian vs. Palmer

I was doin' some cipherin' on some water additions last night. In The New Complete Joy of Homebrewing, Papazian gives the ppm contributions of 1 tsp. of few different salts in 5 gallons of water. In How To Brew, Palmer also gives the ppm contributions (per gallon of water) here.

Unless my conversions are incorrect, the numbers from these two sources don't agree. Even if my conversions are NOT correct the conversions don't look like they agree. Just look at CaCl, Papazian gives about a 1:1 ppm contribution ratio from Ca and Cl but Palmer gives about a 2:1 Cl:Ca contribution ratio. Some of the numbers DO agree (but it's not consistent) and I also noticed that in at least a couple of cases Papazian's numbers are exactly half (or double, can't remember) Palmer's.

My copy of TNCJOH is at least 12 years old...should I just go by Palmer's numbers? The numbers I'm getting from Palmer are the ones in the online copy.

Also, what's your favorite 'water recipe' for a Stout (an Oatmeal Stout if it matters). Here's my tentative recipe:
100% Drinking Water which is (ppm):
Ca 60
Mg 6
Na 7
CO3 190
Cl 11
SO4 21

PLUS (addition per 5 gal.):
3g CaCO3
1g NaHCO3
.5g CaCl
.25g MgSO4

According to Palmer's spreadsheet this should give a Residual Alkalinity of 167. If I increase to 4g of chalk/5 gal. it goes up to 178...but I didn't want to push it too far (maybe I already am?). Below is the result (per Palmer's spreadsheet...using 3g chalk/5 gal.).

100% Drinking Water plus additions:
Ca 131
Mg 6
Na 21
CO3 265
Cl 24
SO4 26

Any help appreciated.

SpanishCastleAle said:

I was doin' some cipherin' on some water additions last night. In The New Complete Joy of Homebrewing, Papazian gives the ppm contributions of 1 tsp. of few different salts in 5 gallons of water. In How To Brew, Palmer also gives the ppm contributions (per gallon of water) here.

Unless my conversions are incorrect, the numbers from these two sources don't agree. Even if my conversions are NOT correct the conversions don't look like they agree. Just look at CaCl, Papazian gives about a 1:1 ppm contribution ratio from Ca and Cl but Palmer gives about a 2:1 Cl:Ca contribution ratio.

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Whoa, let's stop right there and go to the source. This is all just basic, elementary water chemistry.

Calcium Chloride is CaCl2, and it's that 2 that you have to watch. The necessity of the two chlorine items for each calcium ions can be inferred from the relative positions of the two elements in the periodic table. Calcium being in the second column has a +2 charge, and chlorine being in the penultimate column has a -1 charge. Therefore the salt has two chlorine atoms for each calcium atom. Taking the atomic weights, again from the periodic table, 20 for the calcium, 17 times 2 for the chlorine, so you'll have a 20:34 ratio of calcium to chloride ions, roughly 1:1.7.

Some of the numbers DO agree (but it's not consistent) and I also noticed that in at least a couple of cases Papazian's numbers are exactly half (or double, can't remember) Palmer's.

My copy of TNCJOH is at least 12 years old...should I just go by Palmer's numbers? The numbers I'm getting from Palmer are the ones in the online copy.

Click to expand...

Papazian may have failed to consider the relative numbers of each ion in other salts as well. The periodic table does not lie, at least not with the salts used to tweak water chemistry.

Also, what's your favorite 'water recipe' for a Stout (an Oatmeal Stout if it matters). Here's my tentative recipe:
100% Drinking Water which is (ppm):
Ca 60
Mg 6
Na 7
CO3 190
Cl 11
SO4 21

PLUS (addition per 5 gal.):
3g CaCO3
1g NaHCO3
.5g CaCl
.25g MgSO4

According to Palmer's spreadsheet this should give a Residual Alkalinity of 167. If I increase to 4g of chalk/5 gal. it goes up to 178...but I didn't want to push it too far (maybe I already am?). Below is the result (per Palmer's spreadsheet...using 3g chalk/5 gal.).

100% Drinking Water plus additions:
Ca 131
Mg 6
Na 21
CO3 265
Cl 24
SO4 26

Any help appreciated.

Click to expand...

My water already has 350 ppm of Calcium and plenty of magnesium so I just leave it alone. If you want to tweak yours, I'd try using gypsum (CaSO4), which is more soluble than lime (CaCO3), and less prone to increasing the chlorine levels than calcium chloride. I don't think the extra sulphate ions will make much difference, because they'll come out of solution during fermentation. As for the sodium, well, just put in a spoonful of table salt (half a gram) and keep it simple. The carbonate levels are going to spike from the yeast anyway and the chlorine is low enough that it won't matter.

My two cents

Thanks HAH.

This is all just basic, elementary water chemistry.

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Yea...but it was like 18 years ago when I took my last Chemistry class in college!

If you want to tweak yours, I'd try using gypsum (CaSO4), which is more soluble than lime (CaCO3), and less prone to increasing the chlorine levels than calcium chloride. I don't think the extra sulphate ions will make much difference, because they'll come out of solution during fermentation. As for the sodium, well, just put in a spoonful of table salt (half a gram) and keep it simple. The carbonate levels are going to spike from the yeast anyway and the chlorine is low enough that it won't matter.

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The following is my limited understanding (or lack of) so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Just from playing with Palmer's spreadsheet and nomograph it looks to me like; for very dark beers you want medium hardness and high alkalinity. Since I'll be using dark malts in the Stout, there will be a decent amount of acidity in the mash so I assume that's why you can get away with so much alkalinity. I actually was not trying to add any Mg per se...it was the SO4 and that was just to get the Cl:SO4 ratio balanced. According to Palmer (and Daniels in Designing Great Beers); a 1:1 ratio is balanced, high SO4 adds bitter character, high Cl adds malty character (all within limits of course). I already had added some CaCl so I was just 'balancing' it with some Epsom. If I don't add any CaCl then I wouldn't add any MgSO4 (and vice versa). The CaCO3 and NaHCO3 were to increase the alkalinity so the water would be good for dark beers. I suspect it will be 'fun' getting that much chalk dissolved in the water. In the past I always used Gypsum to add Ca but I keep reading that it adds a bitter character (due to the Cl:SO4 ratio getting low) and that many times CaCl is better because it adds a malty character. Sometimes bitter is good...sometimes malty is good. I assumed that since the roast barley adds bitterness that I would want a 'malty' water...but that's just a guess.

If you're not familiar with Palmer's spreadsheet and nomograph (they do the same thing)...they are here. To over-simplify it...it looks like a balancing act between hardness and alkalinity. Light beers need higher hardness but low alkalinity and dark beers need lower hardness and higher alkalinity (I guess hardness here is a relative term because the light beer water might still be softer than the dark).

Obv I have a ton to learn but this is part of the 'fun' of brewing to me...the water chemistry. Thanks again.

Hold on a minute there, folks. A short, boring, but maybe useful chemistry lesson: Having-a-Homebrew, you are using atomic numbers not atomic weights in your calculations, and that won’t work. Calcium has atomic number 20 but atomic weight is 40. Chloride has atomic number 17 but atomic weight 35.5. Also, you have to consider that some of the brewing salts we use are hydrates, and have some water in their salt crystal that affects the ppm contribution of the individual ions. For an extreme example, magnesium sulfate has 7 waters of hydration. The individual weight contributions are Mg = 24, SO4 = 96, and H2O 18 X 7 = 126, so more than half the molecular weight of the salt is water: 24(Mg) + 96 (SO4) = 120 + 126 (H2O) = 246, and so each gram of MgSO4 has half its weight as water.

One gram of anything dissolved in a gallon of water comes to about 264 ppm (1 gram salt/3785 grams of water in a gallon X 1,000,000). If you look over Palmer’s numbers you will see that his ppm per gram of salt add to 264 for each salt if you take the water of hydration into account.

The salts we use that have waters of hydration to account for are: Calcium Chloride (2 waters), Calcium Sulfate (2 waters) and Magnesium Sulfate (7 waters). The other salts we typically use – Sodium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate and Sodium Bicarbonate do not have any water of hydration, so one gram of them in one gallon will equal 264 ppm when the contribution from the ions is added.

One difference between Palmer and Papazian is how they measure the amounts of salts to add to water. John P calculates ppm of salt addition effects in grams per gallon, and gives grams of each salt per teaspoon, so you can use a teaspoon to measure. Charlie P as I recall did his measurement in teaspoons and estimated 5 grams per teaspoon for every salt. John P accounts for the water of hydration, but I don’t know if Charlie P did.

I’d go with Palmer’s numbers not Papazian’s.

I never worry about such things.

Westmalle comes to mind.

Thanks so much AiredAle. Short, not boring and def useful.

When i tried to correlate Papazian's numbers with Palmer's I took Palmer's number (in g) then divided by the g/tsp ratio (to give me Palmer's numbers in tsp/gal) and then divided by 5 (to get tsp per 5 gal).

zoebisch,
Lots of folks never worry about it and make outstanding beers. But the story of when Czech Pils was first introduced was all it took for me to take interest. The story goes that before Czech Pils there were no beers of that light color...and the people just loved this new light/clear brew. So in order to compete, brewers in other parts of Europe tried to make this light/clear brew...but nobody could because their water was not like the Czech water (extremely soft and low alkalinity). Sure they could make a light/clear beer...but it always had an harshness/bitterness and it never competed with the TASTE of Czech Pils because of their water. IMO, making better beer across all styles means knowing your water and being able to tweek it.

SpanishCastleAle said:

IMO, making better beer across all styles means knowing your water and being able to tweek it.

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Agreed, I suppose really my take on it is something akin to "brew what your water makes the best beer". The thing about messing around with the water is you need to be consistent, and for me it just becomes a chore really. Also the concept of altering water chemistry is usually (not always) centered around duplication of another beer. I guess I should add more about my philosophy and that is such that one should use as much local ingredients as one can to make it more unique. That sulphury water may prove useful!

Not trying to discourage you, etc. Merely adding food for thought

Understood zoebisch. I use your approach for 'my' beers (however with bottled water) but I like to try and emulate styles sometimes and enter them in comps so, even though I really don't need to, I like to try and tweek the water for those.