Any Advantages to Classic Triple Decoction?

I am brewing 10 gallons of kolsch soon using pilsener malt, willamette hops and WLP029. I want to make this beer as good as it possibly can be to showcase my homebrewing skills at a fish fry at my new house in June. I gave myself plenty of time to cold condition this beer in kegs, so this should be perfect.

I am wondering if a triple decoction has any benefit with modern pilsen malt (Briese) or if it is just a waste of time.

thoughts?

11 gallons (for 10 gallons in keg)

17 pounds pilsen
2 pounds munich
1 pound white wheat
1 gallon WLP029 starter
25 IBU Willlamette for Bittering
2 oz willamete in whirlpool
OG = 1.050
FG - 1.010 or so....
pitch at 60, ferment at 67
Cold condition in kegs for at least 1 month

Why decoction? According to Noonan: "Not even the most thorough infusion mash can eke out the quality and quantity of extract that is obtained from decoction mashing." Boiling the mash frees starch globules, dissolves protein gum, and deoxygenates the mash. "The beguiling maltiness of European lagers is only achieved by boiling undermodified malt."

Why not decoction: If you're using well-modified malts, you'll see less benefit from decoction. Also, decoction is only one tool that brewers use to make good beer. If you don't have experience using that tool, you may not get the best possible results. I regularly use decoction mashes to make good beer. Better brewers than myself don't use any decoction mashing to make even better beer than I can make. So use the tools that make sense for the equipment and experience you have.

Nateo said:

Why decoction? According to Noonan: "Not even the most thorough infusion mash can eke out the quality and quantity of extract that is obtained from decoction mashing." Boiling the mash frees starch globules, dissolves protein gum, and deoxygenates the mash. "The beguiling maltiness of European lagers is only achieved by boiling undermodified malt."

Why not decoction: If you're using well-modified malts, you'll see less benefit from decoction. Also, decoction is only one tool that brewers use to make good beer. If you don't have experience using that tool, you may not get the best possible results. I regularly use decoction mashes to make good beer. Better brewers than myself don't use any decoction mashing to make even better beer than I can make. So use the tools that make sense for the equipment and experience you have.

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I can surely do decoctions without issues, I have the software to calculate the volumes and such.

So my main question would be is Briese Pilsen Malt super modified or will decoction help a guy out?

I have made beers with the triple decoction method and without. I can definitely tell the difference. I do it occasionally for some Belgian beers (although not necessary), as a requirement for any wheat beer, and I would be willing to experiment with using it on some session beers to add some mouthfeel and melanoidins to it.

It's not necessary to do a decoction mash with pilsen malt unless you have come across some undermodified version of it. That said, you might still want to do a decoction mash if you think it will produce a better product.

I just finished last week my first AG BIAB. I used the enhanced double decoction and the process was very very smooth. I really enjoyed it. As you sit there and stir your first the decoction pull you can literally watch the chemistry at work - amazing. Also I have to say that by the end of it I had built up a pretty good start on the hot break. When I finally transferred to the fermenter I swear I could see clearly down to the settling break material, 6" under the top of the wort.
Now I have only done this once, but I think I will likely continue as it was such a great experience.

***edit ... but my efficiency from the BIAB part sucked 62%***

I think the benefits today are more in terms of flavor profile. In the old days, the decoction was important for efficiency reasons, the flavor additions were a side benefit. Today, efficiency isn't (typically) an issue, so one has to decide if the flavors additions are worth the extra time and trouble.

I've only done a couple decoctions. I probably would not do one on a kolsch. I was quite surprised with the Kolsch that I had when we went to Cologne. EXTREMELY lager like. Very crisp and light, much more bitter than I expected. Then on top of that was the fruitiness that I expected. They were pretty much just like a Std. German lager, but with this fruitiness to them. I didn't find most to be real malty/grainy, which is what I would want a decoction to add to a beer.

I don't do a decoction unless I have added adjuncts to the mash, then I believe it does make a difference.
I use raw wheat and raw corn in my wheat beers, wits and CAP beers. I have come to the realization that a decoction does make a difference due to the unmalted aspect of the grains.
For your recipe, you don't need a decoction IMHO. I would recommend the Hockhurz method of mashing.
The Hochkurz mash has become the standard mashing schedule for beers brewed in Germany. Especially large breweries like it because it doesn’t require decoction and can be done in less than 2 hours which fits well with their desire to be able to mash a new batch every 2 hours. It uses 2 different sacharification rests; one for each group of amylase (beta and alpha) enzymes. A low temperature rest favors the beta amylase and sets the fermentbility of the wort. A high temperature rest favors the alpha amylase and completes the starch conversion. 145 for 30 min and 156-160 for 30 min.

onthekeg said:

I don't do a decoction unless I have added adjuncts to the mash, then I believe it does make a difference.
I use raw wheat and raw corn in my wheat beers, wits and CAP beers. I have come to the realization that a decoction does make a difference due to the unmalted aspect of the grains.
For your recipe, you don't need a decoction IMHO. I would recommend the Hockhurz method of mashing.
The Hochkurz mash has become the standard mashing schedule for beers brewed in Germany. Especially large breweries like it because it doesn’t require decoction and can be done in less than 2 hours which fits well with their desire to be able to mash a new batch every 2 hours. It uses 2 different sacharification rests; one for each group of amylase (beta and alpha) enzymes. A low temperature rest favors the beta amylase and sets the fermentbility of the wort. A high temperature rest favors the alpha amylase and completes the starch conversion. 145 for 30 min and 156-160 for 30 min.

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Ooooh, I dig this idea.

permo, I agree with much of what has been already posted. Decoction mashing is not a necessity but it can add some subtle extra flavors to the beer especially with the traditional Continental styles. The low temperature rests are really not required. My method uses two decoction pulls, mash in @ ~130F then decoct to ~150F and after the main rest decoct to mashout temp. The only commonly available undermodified malt I'm aware of is the special Bohemian pils that Weyermann makes. Any other malt you come across and certainly your Briess is very highly modified.

Briess has a under modified pilsner malt. It's as flavorless as any Briess malt.

Lighter beers like this seem to gain the most from a decoction. You can see the difference in color. Darker beers have so much going on the difference is more subtle.

Decoctions produce a more clear beer, but then I've had some head retention problems with them too. The protein rest can be a problem but that depends on the gist.

Decoction mashing will bring up BHE a few points because it will free more starch.

A triple decotion is a lot of work. After you do it a few times you have to wonder if it's worth it. I mostly do double decotions anymore if I even bother.

onthekeg said:

I don't do a decoction unless I have added adjuncts to the mash, then I believe it does make a difference.
I use raw wheat and raw corn in my wheat beers, wits and CAP beers. I have come to the realization that a decoction does make a difference due to the unmalted aspect of the grains.
For your recipe, you don't need a decoction IMHO. I would recommend the Hockhurz method of mashing.
The Hochkurz mash has become the standard mashing schedule for beers brewed in Germany. Especially large breweries like it because it doesn’t require decoction and can be done in less than 2 hours which fits well with their desire to be able to mash a new batch every 2 hours. It uses 2 different sacharification rests; one for each group of amylase (beta and alpha) enzymes. A low temperature rest favors the beta amylase and sets the fermentbility of the wort. A high temperature rest favors the alpha amylase and completes the starch conversion. 145 for 30 min and 156-160 for 30 min.

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Or do a Hockurz Decoction and have the best of both worlds. But I only do decoctions on big malty lagers like Bocks and Marzen's, enhances the flavor profile.

permo said:

I am brewing 10 gallons of kolsch soon using pilsener malt, willamette hops and WLP029. I want to make this beer as good as it possibly can be to showcase my homebrewing skills at a fish fry at my new house in June. I gave myself plenty of time to cold condition this beer in kegs, so this should be perfect.
11 gallons (for 10 gallons in keg)

17 pounds pilsen
2 pounds munich
1 pound white wheat
1 gallon WLP029 starter
25 IBU Willlamette for Bittering
2 oz willamete in whirlpool
OG = 1.050
FG - 1.010 or so....
pitch at 60, ferment at 67
Cold condition in kegs for at least 1 month

Click to expand...

IMO, a decoction isn't necessary or desirable when brewing a Kolsch. I would also drop the Munich entirely from the recipe and maybe opt for some Saaz on the back end. I ferment my Kolsch's at 62*F and lager from 4-6 weeks.

Catt22 said:

IMO, a decoction isn't necessary or desirable when brewing a Kolsch. I would also drop the Munich entirely from the recipe and maybe opt for some Saaz on the back end. I ferment my Kolsch's at 62*F and lager from 4-6 weeks.

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Have you ever tried a kolsch with a touch of munich? It's really nice, I got the idea from Jamil's recipe and I must say I was shocked at how it rounds the beer out a bit and makes it almost softer and more drinkable.

Saaz would be a great idea........2-3 oz of it.

permo said:

Have you ever tried a kolsch with a touch of munich? It's really nice, I got the idea from Jamil's recipe and I must say I was shocked at how it rounds the beer out a bit and makes it almost softer and more drinkable.

Saaz would be a great idea........2-3 oz of it.

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Probably have tasted one somewhere along the line. I'm somewhat of a purist when it comes to a Kolsch. IMO, what makes a Kolsch a Kolsch is the yeast. Kolsch is one of my favorite styles. I snagged the famous Black Widow Kolsch recipe many years ago and I've had such good results with it that I've seen no need to alter it at all. It's basically all Pilsner malt with just a tad of honey malt which is really optional. Otherwise, no Munich and also no Vienna. I have a drawer full of medals I've won with this recipe. It never fails to place in competitions and usually it's on top. IMO, accurate mash temps and a long lagering period are the keys to a successful Kolsch. A cool ferment is also essential.

I like Hallertauer for bittering and a small amount of Saaz for the late additions @ 15 & 5 min. Like a Pilsener, with a Kolsch there is nowhere to hide.

Catt22 said:

Probably have tasted one somewhere along the line. I'm somewhat of a purist when it comes to a Kolsch. IMO, what makes a Kolsch a Kolsch is the yeast. Kolsch is one of my favorite styles. I snagged the famous Black Widow Kolsch recipe many years ago and I've had such good results with it that I've seen no need to alter it at all. It's basically all Pilsner malt with just a tad of honey malt which is really optional. Otherwise, no Munich and also no Vienna. I have a drawer full of medals I've won with this recipe. It never fails to place in competitions and usually it's on top. IMO, accurate mash temps and a long lagering period are the keys to a successful Kolsch. A cool ferment is also essential.

I like Hallertauer for bittering and a small amount of Saaz for the late additions @ 15 & 5 min. Like a Pilsener, with a Kolsch there is nowhere to hide.

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Ditto. Also a traditionalist. I'll add a smidge of wheat. Minimal flavor and aroma hops. I experimented with my current batch and I added 24 gms total of flavor hops (0.85 oz) instead of my normal 14 gms (0.5 oz). It is still a bit young but the hop flavor is a bit much compared to the authentic stuff. I'm very curious to see how it does in the NHC. In my opinion it is really pushing the style guidelines for hop flavor, but I know judges often score the limit pushing beers higher as they can stand out from the others.

My next batch will go back to my normal flavor addition